From: James M. Atkinson Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 9:54pm Subject: Re: Rent A sweep Bwwahh ha-ha-ha, ROTFLMAO -jma At 7:47 PM -0800 1/8/02, Hawkspirit wrote: >Check this one out, you can now rent sweep equipment for the techno >do-it-yourselfer! > >http://www.spyamericaonline.com/store/comersus_listcategoriesandproducts.asp?idCategory=12 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4474 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:59am Subject: Gingrich's intercepted cell phone call Hill Tape Dispute Allowed to Continue Appeals Court Clears GOP Member's Suit By Juliet Eilperin Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, January 9, 2002; Page A17 A 1996 phone call that inadvertently bounced to a Florida couple's scanner is still echoing in political and judicial chambers, feeding a long-running lawsuit between two members of Congress. A federal court panel recently ruled that Rep. John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) can amend and go forward with his complaint against Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.). The lawsuit stems from the public release of a December 1996 phone conversation involving Boehner, then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) and other House GOP leaders discussing how best to respond to an ethics committee ruling against Gingrich. A Florida couple recorded the conversation off their scanner and gave it to McDermott, then the top Democrat on the House ethics panel. Accounts of the conversation soon appeared in news articles. ============================= ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 4475 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:21am Subject: Re: NEW APCO 25 DIGITAL SCANNER Once upon a midnight dreary, James M. Atkinson pondered, weak and weary: > Title: UNIDEN DEBUTS NEW APCO 25 DIGITAL SCANNER MODELS It is an FCC mandate for all government and public safety users to shift over to to narrow band digital. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 4476 From: Hawkspirit Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 2:53pm Subject: Theory Could someone explain the theory of what this guy is saying? Roger COMSEC C3I Wiretap Detector The Latest High Tech Wiretap Detector. -Protect yourself from legal and illegal wiretaps http://www.spycompany.com/tapdet.htm The C3I is most effective at detecting wiretaps / eavesdropping at the beginning and ending of a telephone call. At the beginning of a telephone call when someone is calling you, watch for a remote extension drawn loop wiretap to seize the line between the cadence ringing, usually between the first and third ring, creating a connection reaction. At the conclusion of any telephone call, by observing the C3I and counting / timing the number of disconnection reactions on the telephone line. The C3I will detect illegal and legal wiretapping / eavesdropping on your telephone line by establishing either a normal signature pattern or an abnormal signature pattern. 4477 From: Hawkspirit Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:08pm Subject: BridgeTaps What do you make of this comment? "Telcordia reports that a significant portion of the loop population (56 percent) has bridge taps" http://www.iec.org/online/tutorials/xdsl_test/topic06.html. 4478 From: Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:57am Subject: Re: Theory In a message dated 1/9/02 11:55:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, hawkspirit@e... writes: << Could someone explain the theory of what this guy is saying? >> Carefully perusing the website, he's saying send me your money. It's a piece of junk packaged in a $30 box. I've seen the prototype in it's plastic packaging. It didn't work then and I'm sure it doesn't work now. 4479 From: Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: BridgeTaps In a message dated 1/9/02 12:08:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, hawkspirit@e... writes: << What do you make of this comment? "Telcordia reports that a significant portion of the loop population (56 percent) has bridge taps" >> I think it's way out of whack. I'd say less than 5% 4480 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:33pm Subject: Re: BridgeTaps Once upon a midnight dreary, MACCFound@a... pondered, weak and weary: > What do you make of this comment? "Telcordia reports that a > significant portion of the loop population (56 percent) has > bridge taps" 56% of the loop population has called the FBI saying they are tapped. ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 4481 From: Charles P Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 7:51pm Subject: Re: Re: BridgeTaps Perhaps that should "56% of the 'loopy' population" Actually, they are not talking at all about illegal wiretaps. There are a large number of bridge taps on older cables out there, and many new cable plants too. In new residential neighborhoods I typically find the lines to a home are tapped into a 50 or 100 pair feeder that runs down the street popping up in the pedistals along the way. When someone has multiple lines and later cancels some, the pair is free to use for their neighbor's new 2nd line- yet still accessable from the home where the pair was used last year, the telco guys are happy to find an unused pair and don't care if it was tapped off somewhere else. They show up on TDR runs often. This can be true for business lines as well. It becomes a problem for the installation of dsl lines as it can reduce the bandwith available. Small taps don't make a big difference but longer ones can be a problem. This is what the original quote was refering to. Charles Global Communications Tarrytown, NY charles@t... www.telephonesecurity.com > > What do you make of this comment? "Telcordia reports that a > > significant portion of the loop population (56 percent) has > > bridge taps" > > 56% of the loop population has called the FBI saying they are > tapped. > > > > > ******************************************************************* > Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) > Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip > mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com > tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 > "In God we trust, all others we monitor" > ******************************************************************* > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > 4482 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 7:55pm Subject: Re: Theory At 12:53 PM -0800 1/9/02, Hawkspirit wrote: >Could someone explain the theory of what this guy is saying? Roger > >COMSEC C3I Wiretap Detector >The Latest High Tech Wiretap Detector. >-Protect yourself from legal and illegal wiretaps > >http://www.spycompany.com/tapdet.htm > >The C3I is most effective at detecting wiretaps / eavesdropping at the >beginning and ending of a telephone call. At the beginning of a telephone >call when someone is calling you, watch for a remote extension drawn loop >wiretap to seize the line between the cadence ringing, usually between the >first and third ring, creating a connection reaction. At the conclusion of >any telephone call, by observing the C3I and counting / timing the number >of disconnection reactions on the telephone line. The C3I will detect >illegal and legal wiretapping / eavesdropping on your telephone line by >establishing either a normal signature pattern or an abnormal signature >pattern. *** Private and Confidential *** You know the funny thing is that I spoke to the owner of the company who makes the thing a few months back as to how his product detect bugs, and he gave me one hell of a song and dance routine. He refused to discuss the technology in any way, shape, form, or manner, and tried to intimidate me by attempting to pull the "I worked for the phone company for umpteen years" crap, and the "I don't know who you think you are" game. I got the distinct impression that most of the people he deals with don't have a technical background, and when I started to ask even basic questions he started acting like an asshole and just completely stone-walled me (which made my bullshit detector go off). Sadly, instead of answering some basic questions he went on a rant about how I had to come to his offices to see the thing (for what I suspect was a controlled demo), and then he totally blew his credibility with me when he told me about the crackpot who had evaluated the thing (and was endorsing it "as an expert", bwahhh ha-ha-ha). I feel kind of sorry for the guy, and I tried to take him seriously, but from what he was describing it sounds like little more then just another blinky-box. I am more then happy to review any actually technical specifications or white papers the guy is willing to provide, but all he would provide me with was marketing hype, hyperbole, and similar crap (which of course kept making my bullshit detector go off ). The product may indeed do what they claim, hell it may even cure acne, wart, and baldness, but as an engineer I have to see technical stats on the thing, marketing hype means nothing to me. Lets see some credible stats and technical stuff. None of this marketing mumbo-jumbo foolishness, if it does what he claims then I am interested, plain and simple. The funny thing, is that the guy I talked to seemed obsessed with finding shoddy workmanship, an less considered with finding bugging devices. The "line signature box" seems like a good idea, but in reality it is actually of minimal value, and has been offered by dozens of other companies in the past (usually in the form of an impedance tester). Yes, such boxes will impress people with little or no experience under their belts, but a real TSCM professional will find it of minimal value, and usually a source of great amusement. There are even boxes that watch currently flow at the on-hook/off-hook transition point, but they are of minimal value for detecting anything other then sloppy workmanship (shucks, even simple cap meter will detect such things). You can actually buy a $20 box at Radio Shack that will detect remote extensions, so if that is all the box is doing it would explain why the guy got his panties in a bunch when I started asking questions. Your money would probably be better spent on a decent TDR, a giga-ohm test set, or even a rubber chicken.. However, I'll keep an open mind, and would encourage other to do the same; but before you part with any cash you had better ask some technical questions and get some second opinions. -jma -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4483 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 8:07pm Subject: Re: BridgeTaps At 1:08 PM -0800 1/9/02, Hawkspirit wrote: >What do you make of this comment? > >"Telcordia reports that a significant portion of the loop population (56 >percent) has bridge taps" > >http://www.iec.org/online/tutorials/xdsl_test/topic06.html. It is usually just a result of sloppy workmanship by outside plant folks. Sadly, most of them have no idea what a TDR is, let along actually use one. The percentage of "sloppy loops" varies widely. In older urban areas it may be 50-60%, but in newer suburban areas and industrial parks it may be completely zero. Any TSCM'er with a TDR can find the easily find the stuff. -jma -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4484 From: John McCain Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:01am Subject: Re: Rent A sweep The really funny part is that this is apart of a NASDAQ listed company ( CGPN) selling for about 0.011 USD per share :). Cheers, JohnM At 10:54 PM 1/8/02 -0500, you wrote: >Bwwahh ha-ha-ha, > >ROTFLMAO > >-jma > > >At 7:47 PM -0800 1/8/02, Hawkspirit wrote: > >Check this one out, you can now rent sweep equipment for the techno > >do-it-yourselfer! > > > >http://www.spyamericaonline.com/store/comersus_listcategoriesandproducts. > asp?idCategory=12 > > >-- > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, >Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 > Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 > 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ > Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 mailto:jmatk@t... >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough > men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Manager, Corporate Security Voice: 217-352-3207 Data Comm for Business, Inc. Fax: 217-352-0350 807 Pioneer Web: http://www.dcbnet.com Champaign, IL. 61820 Email: Jmccain@d... 4485 From: kirk Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 0:33pm Subject: Re: Rent A sweep I went to their website and enlarged the picture of the phone line sweeper. GUESS who makes it?.......... CCS, hahahaha. -w--------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "James M. Atkinson" Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:54:09 -0500 >Bwwahh ha-ha-ha, > >ROTFLMAO > >-jma > > >At 7:47 PM -0800 1/8/02, Hawkspirit wrote: >>Check this one out, you can now rent sweep equipment for the techno >>do-it-yourselfer! >> >>http://www.spyamericaonline.com/store/comersus_listcategoriesandproducts.asp?idCategory=12 > > >-- > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, >Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 > Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 > 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ > Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough > men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- Kirk Adirim President TACTRONIX LLC Tactical Electronics for Critical Missions 8497 Sunset Boulevard #28 West Hollywood, CA 90069 USA E: kirk@t... T: 310-388-5886 F: 310-388-5886 W: www.tactronix.com -- 4486 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 8:22pm Subject: Re: Rent A sweep What is really funny is that if you know the TSCM business several "devices" on their website stand out as being eavesdropping toys sold/"made" by CCS. The entire "rental site" read just like a CCS catalog.down to the fantasy pricing. So just how many times do you have to see the Brooklyn Bridge get sold to a tourist before you realize that something just isn't right? -jma At 1:33 PM -0500 1/9/02, kirk wrote: >I went to their website and enlarged the picture of the phone line >sweeper. GUESS who makes it?.......... CCS, hahahaha. > > >-w--------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >From: "James M. Atkinson" >Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:54:09 -0500 > >>Bwwahh ha-ha-ha, >> >>ROTFLMAO >> >>-jma >> >> >>At 7:47 PM -0800 1/8/02, Hawkspirit wrote: >>>Check this one out, you can now rent sweep equipment for the techno >>>do-it-yourselfer! >>> > >>http://www.spyamericaonline.com/store/comersus_listcategoriesandproducts.asp?idCategory=12 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4487 From: Bug Sweeper Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:51am Subject: DNR? Does anyone know of an inexpensive and simple DNR? Friend wants to keep tabs on outgoing calls while someone is housesitting over a weekend. Thanks, E. Leonard 4488 From: iDEN-Test Port-Marcelrf Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: DNR? Here is a cheap & dirty unit that interfaces to a PC. This easily installed kit logs information on all outgoing and incoming calls, as well as any tone, from either MS-DOS or Windows. This kit and provided software indicate on your computer screen the date and time of each outgoing call, the length of the call and the number dialed. Credit card numbers also are logged. For incoming calls, the device even shows how many times your phone rang. Connect this kit to a parallel port on your PC. This unit requires 12-18Vdc/200mA wall transformer or 10-12Vdc. (Includes: 3 1/2" disk, case and instruction manual. Size: 1 1/2x5x5 1/4" (HWD) http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=&product%5Fid=990%2D0080 Bug Sweeper wrote: > Does anyone know of an inexpensive and simple DNR? Friend wants to keep > tabs on outgoing calls while someone is housesitting over a weekend. > > Thanks, > > E. Leonard > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- "NEXTEL1 IT'S NOT JUST NEXTEL" Subscribe to Nextel1: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/NEXTEL1 "NEXTEL2 FOR iDEN SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS" Subscribe to Nextel2: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/NEXTEL2 4489 From: iDEN-Test Port-Marcelrf Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:17am Subject: Re: DNR? Let me try this again: This easily installed kit logs information on all outgoing and incoming calls, as well as any tone, from either MS-DOS or Windows. This kit and provided software indicate on your computer screen the date and time of each outgoing call, the length of the call and the number dialed. Credit card numbers also are logged. For incoming calls, the device even shows how many times your phone rang. Connect this kit to a parallel port on your PC. This unit requires 12-18Vdc/200mA wall transformer or 10-12Vdc. (Includes: 3 1/2" disk, case and instruction manual. Size: 1 1/2x5x5 1/4" (HWD).) http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=&product%5Fid=990%2D0080 Bug Sweeper wrote: > Does anyone know of an inexpensive and simple DNR? Friend wants to keep > tabs on outgoing calls while someone is housesitting over a weekend. > > Thanks, > > E. Leonard -- "NEXTEL1 IT'S NOT JUST NEXTEL" Subscribe to Nextel1: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/NEXTEL1 "NEXTEL2 FOR iDEN SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS" Subscribe to Nextel2: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/NEXTEL2 4490 From: greendots . Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:03pm Subject: [HUMOR] - How to put up a tower antenna Apologies for wasting bandwidth with humor. --- Subject: Fw: How to put up a tower antenna I am writing in response to your request for additional information on my recent accident. In block No. 3 of the accident reporting form I put "poor planning" as the cause of the accident. You said in your letter that I should explain more fully and I trust that the following details will be sufficient. I am an amateur radio operator.. On the day of the accident, I was working alone on the top section of my new 80 foot antenna tower. When I had completed my work, I discovered that I had, over the course of several trips up the tower, brought up about 300 pounds of tools and spare hardware. Rather than carry the now unneeded tools and hardware down by hand, I decided to lower the items in a small barrel by using a pulley which, fortunately, was attached to the gin pole at the top of the tower. Securing the rope at the ground level, I went up to the top of the tower and loaded the tools and hardware into the barrel. Then I went back to the ground and untied the rope holding tightly to insure a slow descent of the 300 pounds of tools and hardware. You will note in block No. 11 of the accident form that I weigh 155 pounds. Due to my surprise at being jerked off the ground so suddenly, I lost my presence of mind and forgot to let go of the rope. Needless to say, I proceeded at a rather rapid rate up the side of the tower. In the vicinity of the 40 foot level, I met the barrel coming down. This explains my fractured skull and broken collarbone. Slowed only slightly, I continued my rapid ascent, not stopping until the fingers of my right hand were two knuckles deep into the pulley. Fortunately by this time I had regained my presence of mind and was able to hold tightly to the rope in spite of my pain. At approximately the same time, however, the barrel hit the ground and the bottom fell out of the barrel. Devoid of the weight of the tools and hardware, the barrel now weighed 20 pounds. I refer you again to my weight in block 11. As you might imagine, I began a rapid descent down the side of the tower. In the vicinity of the 40 foot level, I met the barrel coming up, This accounts for the two fractured ankles and lacerations of my legs and lower body. The encounter with the barrel slowed me enough to lessen my injuries when I fell onto the pile of tools and hardware and, fortunately, only three vertebras were cracked. I am sorry to report however that as I lay there on the tools and hardware, in pain, unable to stand, and watching the empty barrel 80 feet above me, I again lost my presence of mind, I let go of the rope. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com 4491 From: Aimee Farr Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:54am Subject: FW: Secrecy News -- 01/10/02 [A vote among my female cohorts suggested that 80% of us would voluntarily enroll in such a program. The other 20% indicated they qualify for involuntary commitment. ~Aimee] > BILL WOULD BAN SPACE-BASED MIND CONTROL WEAPONS > > Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) introduced a bill in the House of > Representatives late last year that would ban weapons in space. But > while there have been many similar legislative initiatives in the past, > Rep. Kucinich's bill is distinguished by its unusually expansive > definition of "weapons." > > Among the weapons that it would proscribe the new measure includes > "psychotronic" devices that are "directed at individual persons or > targeted populations for the purpose of ... mood management, or mind > control." > > No explanation for this peculiar proposal was immediately available. > But the text of "The Space Preservation Act of 2001" (H.R. 2977), > introduced on October 2, may be found here: > > http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html > > The Kucinich bill was hailed by Citizens Against Human Rights Abuse, one > of a number of organizations of people who say they are victims of > government experimentation involving electromagnetic and other > psychotronic weapons. See their web site here: > > http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~welsh/ 4492 From: Miguel Puchol Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:12pm Subject: Re: Rent A sweep I sometimes feel like buying some of these things, so that when I retire I can get some extra income from my own "Worthless Pseudo-TSCM Junk Museum" - members of this list will get free entrance :-) Cheers, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hawkspirit" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 4:47 AM Subject: [TSCM-L] Rent A sweep > Check this one out, you can now rent sweep equipment for the techno > do-it-yourselfer! > > http://www.spyamericaonline.com/store/comersus_listcategoriesandproducts.asp ?idCategory=12 > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 4493 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:29pm Subject: A Wiretap In Every Home http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22888-2002Jan9.html A Wiretap In Every Home By Richard Cohen Thursday, January 10, 2002; Page A19 If it is true that all trends start in California, then the rest of the country had better pay attention. Gray Davis has proposed that his state's police agencies be given the same authority to fight terrorism that Congress recently gave the feds. If this keeps up, there won't be an untapped phone in the nation. It's not that what Davis proposes is so awful. What he has in mind is a state version of the insultingly named USA Patriot Act, which among other things expanded wiretap authority at the federal level. It also permits the government to monitor e-mail and Internet sites. Uncle Sam is going to know if you've been bad or good -- so be good for goodness' sake. But you better watch out. Because already other states are asking for the same authority. All this is being done in the name of anti-terrorism, but the expanded powers could be used for any purpose approved by a court -- a state court at that. You need only peer back in history to wonder if we are going to be any safer or, maybe, much worse off. Here I must state a prejudice. Having once been a statehouse correspondent (Maryland), I am underwhelmed by the competence and professionalism of state government. Most legislators are part-time, but the lobbyists are not. Often, they lead the representatives around by the nose -- offering expertise, advice and, in a pinch, a free vacation to somewhere very nice. Similarly, state judges do not match the caliber of their federal counterparts. Unlike federal judges, who are appointed for life, state judges usually are elected. ... [...] So it is not surprising that in the past, various states have mimicked the federal government -- hunting reds, anarchists, syndicalists and, later, integrationists. States, even cities, had their own red squads, persecuting or, on rare occasion, prosecuting alleged subversives or mere dissidents. There was hardly a major city in the country that didn't have some palooka in a fedora following some bookworm in a beret. [...] Yes, I know. That was then and this is now. But even now police power can be awesome if unchecked. The power to tap phones, to accumulate damaging personal information, to track your Internet habits is the stuff of Orwell and Kafka. It was also the stuff of the late Richard Daley of Chicago and the equally late Gov. Ross Barnett of Mississippi. Police power needs to be rationed, to be monitored. ... ...The last thing we need is 50 FBIs, some of them effectively accountable to no one. Let the feds handle terrorism. That way, we'll all be safer. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4494 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Judge: Ohio Ban on Concealed Weapons Unconstitutional http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,42654,00.html Judge: Ohio Ban on Concealed Weapons Unconstitutional Thursday, January 10, 2002 Respond to Editor Email this Article CINCINNATI - A fitness trainer, hairdresser and pizza shop owner are all breathing easier after a judge in Ohio ruled they have a right to carry concealed weapons to protect themselves. "There is no doubt that the very thought a potential victim might possess a firearm deters that element of our society that cares nothing about laws or human life but rather understands only one thing - brute force," Hamilton County Judge Robert Ruehlman wrote. The common pleas judge ruled that Ohio's law against carrying concealed weapons violates the state constitution. Lawyers for the city of Cincinnati, the county and state said they would appeal the ruling. The lawsuit was filed in July 2000 by a private investigator and four other workers who said their jobs required them to carry weapons for self-defense. The workers say the Ohio Constitution allows citizens to bear arms and doesn't say the weapons cannot be concealed. But Ohio allows only law enforcement officials or officers of the state and federal government to carry concealed weapons. The workers argued that the ban subjects people to arrest before they get a chance in court to clear themselves by arguing they had legitimate self-defense reasons to be armed. Lawyers for Cincinnati, Hamilton County and the state countered that the right to bear arms does not prevent the state from regulating how people may carry guns. They said concealed weapons pose a threat to police officers and others. "Amidst all of the baying from gun opponents is the irrefutable fact that there will always be people in our society who refuse to follow any rules and how can never been reasoned with or rehabilitated," Ruehlman wrote. "These people have no conscience and no qualms about doing harm to innocent persons. As a consequence, every law-abiding citizen of this state has the right to protect him or herself with a concealed firearm." Ruehlman defined law-abiding people as those not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law from possessing firearms. Ruehlman heard testimony over four days in December. After the trial, lawyers defending the state law asked the judge to remove himself from the case. They said he couldn't make a fair ruling because his wife and baby were kidnapped at gunpoint outside a strip-mall camera shop in 1989. Ruehlman's wife, Tia, said a gun probably wouldn't have helped her overcome her assailant. She said she believes that residents should be able to carry concealed weapons but had not discussed the case with her husband. Ruehlman declined to comment on the request. Anti-gun groups said they were worried about the concealed weapons case because of Ruehlman's past rulings. Those include his dismissal of Cincinnati's lawsuit against gun manufacturers two years ago. The Associated Press contributed to this report. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4495 From: John McCain Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Theory (brought to mind by Comsec C3I discussion) JMA's thoughts on the Consec device brought to mind a few thoughts that we might discuss a bit on the list. It's been kinda quiet lately anyway, but if this is too far off topic for you, trash it. We, as techies and engineers, tend to think in the ways we learned the laws of elementary physics . We (ok, technically "I" instead of "we", but I'll assume others fit the pattern) have been conditioned over the years to focus on steady-state activity instead of transients; for example we usually see a series circuit in its steady-state conditions... not it's dynamic response. A good example would be closing a switch on a circuit with a battery, capacitor, and resistor. We (at least I) first think that ok, there's a fast transient, then no current flows (other than perhaps some minor leakage through the cap). But, I conceptualize the no-current state of this circuit as it's "normal" state... not the transient state. In reality, both the initial transients as well as the steady state are the "normal" states for this circuit. Only rarely do I conceptualize things in their transient, dynamic conditions. I think of an oscillator as always oscillating, a transmitter as always transmitting, receiver as always receiving, etc. I even think of office politics and inter-personal dynamics as a sort of steady-state dynamic... not a series of transient events. I rarely even consider the "steady state" of oscillators, receivers, even LEDs, etc. starting up or shutting down. Finally getting to the point! I suspect that we should consider the transient, dynamic responses in the things we analyze and pay more attention to those transients. Looking very carefully at what fast transients occur when a phone goes off hook is something I've never done. Using a TDR or SA, we look at transients (since the dynamic is their "steady state"), but do you carefully observe the first pulse of that TDR trace to see what effect the circuit under test has on the TDR instrument? Or, do you just adjust magnitude to make it look "normal" and start looking at returns? I suspect those transients are sometimes telling us things that we don't hear. Am I off base here. Do others not fall into this trap? Any thoughts? JohnM Manager, Corporate Security Voice: 217-352-3207 Data Comm for Business, Inc. Fax: 217-352-0350 807 Pioneer Web: http://www.dcbnet.com Champaign, IL. 61820 Email: Jmccain@d... 4496 From: david_johnrobinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:11pm Subject: The "Big " rental sweep debate Two things hit me regarding this listing; A) so what is new? this stuff has been out there advertised for years. B) Why does every one immediatly jump and say CCS? Let me put my cards on the table, I was the operations manager for CCS for a time here in London, and they realy do not deserve the bad mouthing they get from the group, OK so most of the stuff they provide is "crap" from a professional point of veiw, but to most of their clients it's exactly what they want (most of them are Mr and Mrs Joe schmo ) Any one wanting professional equipment would /should come to professional suppliers like our company Department Q who only deal with Government level bugs , covert equipment and GSM tracking. I don't think it is CCS for several reasons, Firstly they have exactly this type of thing on their already long established web site ; www.spyzone.com which for the genre has some very nice products. Secondly we are told by the group these are CCS type prices - wrong! when I worked there the prices were much higher - try 800% mark up and dollar prices quoted as pounds in UK, and lastly they only ask for $500 dealer price - a CCS licence costs $150.000 with no stock. So I think it's time the "farmer and the cowboy should be friends", get off CCS back , there prices and equipment will kill them and the other dinosores off soon enough. If you want to worry, and it seems you do , try talking to professional covert suppliers - if you call us a spy shop you had better duck, ask us what we can do with your GSM phone and why we have stopped telebanking and wap messaging. There will always be some one out there who wants Kiddy toys and some one who will supply them - so let them , they deserve each other. Thanks for letting me have a say, I'll sneak back into the shadows now and watch the sparks fly. Dr David J Robinson Department Q (international HQ) England +44 1903 787943 Over 25 years covert experience with British forces 4497 From: Thomas Conlon Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: local CO Info DSLReports has the best CO info I've seen, but it relies on user input quite a bit. Are there any public resources to research a given CO for profitability and co-locations, for example, or the consumer could research like before they move? That would be sweet. -tc syseng@m... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ 4498 From: Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Re: The "Big " rental sweep debate In a message dated 1/10/02 3:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, david_johnrobinson@h... writes: << Any one wanting professional equipment would /should come to professional suppliers like our company Department Q who only deal with Government level bugs , covert equipment and GSM tracking. >> Thank you for the ad. 4499 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:35pm Subject: Re: The "Big " rental sweep debate Well, OK, let's take an objective look at this. If I lay my copy of the CCS and G-Com's catalog down next to my monitor, and then pull up the pages in question the images and specs look exactly like those in the CCS listings. In fact pretty much everything on the site looks like it was lifted right off the CCS book (with a bad scanner) , and marked up 30% over confidential dealer cost. If we then review the "spyzone" website we see almost identical items being offered, but at much higher prices. If we further go to the TSCM database of eavesdropping threats (called "Raphael") we find that several very specific items being offered on the website in question are proprietary to CCS, and CCS dealers, and that all roads lead back to CCS (do you see where I am going?). In my professional opinion virtually everything on the site in question is CCS products. Well, OK... it is actually someone else product with a CSS logo on it, a fancy box, and a ridiculous price tag; but for all practical purposes it is CCS stuff. A CCS "franchise" can be had for as little as nothing, or $500, or $1500 depending on what mood strikes that day, and if you have a good cigar with you. If someone pays much more then a few grand for a "dealership" they should also be investing in several bridges and tunnels I am offering at a good price. Personally, I think it is more of a case of "Cowboy verses Cattle Rustler" -jma At 10:11 PM +0000 1/10/02, david_johnrobinson wrote: >Two things hit me regarding this listing; A) so what is new? this >stuff has been out there advertised for years. >B) Why does every one immediatly jump and say CCS? Let me put my >cards on the table, I was the operations manager for CCS for a time >here in London, and they realy do not deserve the bad mouthing they >get from the group, OK so most of the stuff they provide is "crap" >from a professional point of veiw, but to most of their clients it's >exactly what they want (most of them are Mr and Mrs Joe schmo ) >Any one wanting professional equipment would /should come to >professional suppliers like our company Department Q who only deal >with Government level bugs , covert equipment and GSM tracking. >I don't think it is CCS for several reasons, Firstly they have >exactly this type of thing on their already long established web >site ; www.spyzone.com which for the genre has some very nice >products. Secondly we are told by the group these are CCS type >prices - wrong! when I worked there the prices were much higher - try >800% mark up and dollar prices quoted as pounds in UK, and lastly >they only ask for $500 dealer price - a CCS licence costs $150.000 >with no stock. >So I think it's time the "farmer and the cowboy should be friends", >get off CCS back , there prices and equipment will kill them and the >other dinosores off soon enough. >If you want to worry, and it seems you do , try talking to >professional covert suppliers - if you call us a spy shop you had >better duck, ask us what we can do with your GSM phone and why we >have stopped telebanking and wap messaging. >There will always be some one out there who wants Kiddy toys and some >one who will supply them - so let them , they deserve each other. >Thanks for letting me have a say, I'll sneak back into the shadows >now and watch the sparks fly. >Dr David J Robinson >Department Q (international HQ) >England >+44 1903 787943 >Over 25 years covert experience with British forces -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4500 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: Theory (brought to mind by Comsec C3I discussion) One of the things I look for during a sweep of the phone lines is how the CO relay reacts to various levels of current. What I am in interested in the electrical behavior of a line during the loop relay seizing the line, and releasing it, and more specifically the "overshoot" areas of the signal. I am also interested in the frequencies that appear right at the moments of making, and then of breaking the line. Also, during this transition point you can usually bounce several TDR pulses down line and pick out mouse feces from miles away. If done properly the multi-mega ohm devices (typical LEO devices or slaves) stand out like a sore thumb, and you can see virtually anything of interest along the line. The key is to get a really good impedance match (for the transition point), and then only trigger the TDR during the transient or ringing, and preferably during the zero crossing. Remember, the phone line BORSCHT operates in milliseconds, but TDR operated in pico and nano seconds. For a millisecond or so you have a dry line, and if you can get two lines to "go dry" at the same time you can do some really wonderful thing to find bugs or other mischief. -jma At 2:59 PM -0600 1/10/02, John McCain wrote: >JMA's thoughts on the Consec device brought to mind a few thoughts that we >might discuss a bit on the list. It's been kinda quiet lately anyway, but >if this is too far off topic for you, trash it. > >We, as techies and engineers, tend to think in the ways we learned the laws >of elementary physics . We (ok, technically "I" instead of "we", but I'll >assume others fit the pattern) have been conditioned over the years to >focus on steady-state activity instead of transients; for example we >usually see a series circuit in its steady-state conditions... not it's >dynamic response. > >A good example would be closing a switch on a circuit with a battery, >capacitor, and resistor. We (at least I) first think that ok, there's a >fast transient, then no current flows (other than perhaps some minor >leakage through the cap). But, I conceptualize the no-current state of >this circuit as it's "normal" state... not the transient state. In >reality, both the initial transients as well as the steady state are the >"normal" states for this circuit. > >Only rarely do I conceptualize things in their transient, dynamic >conditions. I think of an oscillator as always oscillating, a transmitter >as always transmitting, receiver as always receiving, etc. I even think of >office politics and inter-personal dynamics as a sort of steady-state >dynamic... not a series of transient events. I rarely even consider the >"steady state" of oscillators, receivers, even LEDs, etc. starting up or >shutting down. > >Finally getting to the point! I suspect that we should consider the >transient, dynamic responses in the things we analyze and pay more >attention to those transients. Looking very carefully at what fast >transients occur when a phone goes off hook is something I've never done. > >Using a TDR or SA, we look at transients (since the dynamic is their >"steady state"), but do you carefully observe the first pulse of that TDR >trace to see what effect the circuit under test has on the TDR >instrument? Or, do you just adjust magnitude to make it look "normal" and >start looking at returns? I suspect those transients are sometimes >telling us things that we don't hear. > >Am I off base here. Do others not fall into this trap? Any thoughts? >JohnM > > > >Manager, Corporate Security Voice: 217-352-3207 >Data Comm for Business, Inc. Fax: 217-352-0350 >807 >Pioneer Web: >http://www.dcbnet.com >Champaign, IL. 61820 Email: >Jmccain@d... > > > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4501 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:40pm Subject: Spy hunt sparked by 'fight with wife' http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_491601.html?menu= Spy hunt sparked by 'fight with wife' A man who sparked a spy alert apparently to cheer himself up after a row with his wife may have to pay thousands in compensation. The Japan Coast Guard spent more than L52,000 dispatching 17 vessels, launching aircraft 10 times, and mobilising 380 personnel. The man had reported seeing suspicious people in wet suits landing on an island. Police plan to send the case to prosecutors and charge the unidentified man. The Japan Times says he told police he hatched the story in an attempt to cheer himself up after a quarrel with his wife. It is reported the 41-year-old claimed five or six people wearing what looked like wet suits had emerged from what appeared to be a miniature submarine and landed on Enoshima Island, in Kanagawa. The coast guard then searched the North Korean freighter Sonamu. Nothing out of the ordinary was found on the ship which was first seen anchored near Enoshima just after the man made the report. The incident followed the sinking in late December of an unidentified but suspected North Korean spy ship in the East China Sea after a brief firefight with Japanese authorities. Story filed: 09:32 Thursday 10th January 2002 -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. AtkinsonPhone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. - George Orwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4502 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: Attacking CCS? Yes, exactly that Once upon a midnight dreary, david_johnrobinson pondered, weak and weary: > Two things hit me regarding this listing; A) so what is new? this > stuff has been out there advertised for years. B) Why does every > one immediatly jump and say CCS? Because some of us have been around a long time and have seen this stuff over and over and over. I'm talking longer than some of the players in this industry have been alive and longer than practically anyone in the industry has been in business. > Let me put my cards on the table, I was the operations > manager for CCS for a time here in London Then pardon me for being forthright, but either you were incredibly naive or you are a crook. > and they realy do not deserve the bad mouthing they get from > the group, See comment above. If you really believe this, I will go with naive. > OK so most of the stuff they provide is "crap" from a > professional point of veiw, but to most of their clients it's > exactly what they want One could make the same argument about illegal drugs or abortion. That doesn't justify it. > Any one wanting professional equipment would /should come to > professional suppliers like our company Department Q who only > deal with Government level bugs , covert equipment and GSM > tracking. Now I will change my opionion back to crook. If you only deal with 'Government level bugs', why are you inviting anyone to come to you. Do you claim to be supplying 'Government level bugs' to anyone? In the unlikely event you supply anything at all, I would expect it would be to anyone *other* than the government. Remember, there are a (very) few people around who actually work in these technologies, with government clients on a daily basis, and cannot be fooled. Most of them are smarter than me and keep their mouths shut. I speak my mind. > I don't think it is CCS for several reasons For all the reasons you mention, it absolutely fits the pattern of CCS. Lie to someone with money, schmooze them, pump up their egos and convince them they will make outrageous profits dealing with CCS. The ignorant fool (and ANYONE who deals with CCS/G-COM in ANY way is an ignorant fool) hands CCS five or six figures for the 'privilege' of acquiring their absolutely worthless but impressive boxes of nonfunctional bells and whistles. At that point the relationship, such as it was, is over unless CCS feels they can extract/extort even more money from the ignorant fool. In this case apparently, and I have seen it more times than I could count, the ignorant fool private labeled the crap because he wants the other ignorant fools who might buy it to think he manufactured it. CCS doesn't care. They got their money. They probably charged the guy extra for private labeling it, which in itself is funny because CCS was the original king of repackaging and slapping their name on standard products from other manufacturers and claiming it as their own. CCS cheated the guy pushing this private labeled crap, because he was an ignorant fool and had more money than he had brains. ANYONE who does any homework on CCS would never deal with them on any level. > a CCS licence costs $150.000 with no stock. A CCS 'license' or 'distributorship' or whatever they choose to call it costs precisely as much money as they can extract from the ignorant fool who gets involved with them. They (CCS) are very good at developing financial information on their victims, and this is how much they charge. Same with 'exclusive' rights to distribute CCS's vaporware in a particular country. I had the distinct pleasure at a trade show in New Delhi some years ago of introducing three 'exclusive distributors for all of India' to each other. Each had paid, as I recall, sums between the rupee equivalent of USD $50,000 and $200,000 for the alleged privilege of having an 'exclusive' representation for CCS in all of India. None received anything in return. Nada. If I called them tomorrow, I could purchase the exclusive rights to distribute their products in any country you could name, and I likely would be the 50th person to purchase the exclusive. You were a member of the den of thieves. You know how the game is played. You just have to pretend to defend them to justify stealing money from your victims. If you led the victim (ignorant fool) to believe something which was not true, either from a product representation standpoint or from an equipment performance standpoint, then you committed fraud. Whether you believe it or not, some day there will be a day of judgement, and you will have to provide an accounting, before man possibly and to God definitely, for your actions. You do have the opportunity to escape those penalties and erase the slate, and if you wish to discuss this issue only via PRIVATE email with me I will be glad to do so. > If you want to worry, and it seems you do , try talking to > professional covert suppliers - if you call us a spy shop you > had better duck You already provided substantial incontrovertible testimony that you are a crook, and your likely fictitious claims indicate you still are operating in the mode you learned from CCS. Therefore you fit this list's generic, and my personal, definition of a spy shop. This month is 30 years I have been manufacturing electronic surveillance and intelligence gathering products for government agencies. Do some research and you will find that is true. Manufacturing is starting with a blank CAD screen, component manufacturer's data books, designing a prototype, breadboarding and debugging a few, building the prototype, debugging it, putting a few beta test units into hands of professional users, getting their feedback and incorporating that into the design, refining the design, getting circuit boards etched and stuffed with components, firmware written, the incredibly difficult job of doing an effective job of packaging, documenting everything for small or medium scale production, writing instruction manuals, technical manuals, writing test procedures, setting up boxing and labeling and all the other tasks which exist between a wet dream and a workable effective product shipping to market. It is not taking some other company's product, repackaging it, and slapping your own name on it. Your claim of dealing in covert electronics is not the claim someone would make who genuinely does that work, but is the claim of someone who is playing the same CCS game of dealing in sensitive and restricted equipment as a sales tactic to make ignorant fools believe they are getting something they're not supposed to have. CCS caters to Walter Mittys, people who have more money than brains, and people who want to throw money at something and think they are going to get rich overnight. CCS sells dreams. They play on the mystique of dealing in sensitive and restricted technology. And ignorant fools fall for it, don't do any homework, and lose their investment. CCS plays a psychology game more than anything else. You know it and I know it and a good number of others know it. Denying it just digs your grave deeper. Some of us have been around for a while. All over the world, dealing with governments who have been cheated by CCS and seeing their tactics firsthand. I have visited most of CCS' shops around the world, played the game, flashed some cash and pretended to believe them just to see how bold they would get. I've witnessed and exposed phony government demos of theirs over and over, and some were impressingly cleverly staged. Don't forget that. There are others on this list who read your comments the same way I interpret them, who have similar backgrounds. They just, as mentioned above, have the discretion to just let you play your little spy groupie game and keep quiet. I don't often blatantly attack crooks, but you provided sufficient evidence to where a reasonable man who is familiar with this industry would believe you were and are a crook and a prevaricator (polite word for liar). I've made my comments, and of course you will have to jump in and whine and threaten and bluff and try to save face and convince all 1000+ of us who follow this excellent list that you are not a crook claiming to manufacture all sorts of secret squirrel devices but are just a bold groupie pretending to play a man's game and thinking you will fool us. You may fool some of us. You will not fool all of us. Maybe you're just mentally deficient. Maybe you are merely delusional. I don't know. More likely, you learned how to extract money from ignorant fools from your time at CCS, and are continuing to pretend, now that you have your own business card, letterhead and probably a combination phone and fax machine operating in some corner of your flat. Do you have full time employment somewhere else to earn enough money to pay the light bill and feed your fantasy of peddling vaporware to alleged government agencies? You're really only fooling yourself. You can reply however you wish, but I will not be baited and will say no more on the subject. The above represents 30 years of watching this industry and being intimately involved in the very issues I discussed, and knowing of whence I speak. The very best move you could make at this point would be to drop the issue and just back off and fade back into your 'lab' in the spare bedroom of your flat. I will work patiently for years mentoring someone who genuinely wants to start a business, pay his dues, build it on a firm foundation and, above all, be honest with everyone. I have done this with a number of members on this list, behind the scenes, for no reason other than I wanted to give something back to the younger fellows and help them get started along the right path. No one on the list knows it because I don't do it for money or to feed my ego. If someone wants to start an *honest* business and understands it takes years of work, I'm glad to share with them some of my experiences, mistakes and successes. But I give no quarter to the crooks in this industry. A former sales manager I had commented that this was the scummiest industry in which he ever had been involved. This message seems to confirm his observation. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" *******************************************************************