From: J. Oquendo Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:24pm Subject: RE: IR Risk I ran into this scenario a while back and offered it to a compsecurity list I am on. Here is the original message: /// http://securityfocus.com/archive/82/383110/2004-11-26/2004-12-02/1 Figured I would send this to the vuln-dev list after rambling on about it on a firewalls list, so apologies to those who see this as a cross-post dupe. [RECENTLY] I ran across what I believe is an irftp based worm. While cleaning two laptops one day (one connected to a secure VLAN the other not connected), I noticed the connected machine flash its irftp sensor and task manager showed it was running. Few seconds later the connected machine stopped beeping, the disconnected one started, and it too showed irftp sessions. After checking around the premises for infrared *anything*, I dug up all I could from both machines. The disconneted machine had already been cleaned, and the connected one was infected with all sorts of SDBOT worms, Spyware, *crapware*foo*. Something to think about if you're sitting in the park one day disconneted from any network and someone's infected machine sends you via IRFTP some crap. irftp C:\evil_at_script \\victim\C:\WINDOWS\run_me Where some at script would run something like: net user luzer something /ADD /FULLNAME:"Admin Account" /COMMENT:"Admin" /h I'm almost positive something like this is what happened. I believe its possible to have that machine run whatever you would want it to, and since IRFTP has no authentication (that I know of) what is needed to perform such nonsense. A machine name, share name, not that big of a deal. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ J. Oquendo GPG Key ID 0x51F9D78D Fingerprint 2A48 BA18 1851 4C99 CA22 0619 DB63 F2F7 51F9 D78D http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x51F9D78D sil @ politrix . org http://www.politrix.org sil @ infiltrated . net http://www.infiltrated.net "How a man plays the game shows something of his character - how he loses shows all" - Mr. Luckey 10558 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Moran: 'It's a dirty business' http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/11/spy.life/index.html Moran: 'It's a dirty business' (CNN) -- Lindsay Moran read "Harriet the Spy" as a girl and dreamed of growing up to join the CIA. After graduating from Harvard, she did just that. In her new book, "Blowing My Cover: My Life as a CIA Spy," Moran shows readers the real world of espionage is quite different from the Hollywood version. CNN national security correspondent David Ensor spoke with Moran about her career as a spy. ENSOR: What made you decide to apply to the CIA? MORAN: It had been a lifelong dream of mine. I grew up reading this series of books called "Harriet the Spy," and I just thought they were the neatest things and Harriet was the neatest little girl, and she had a spy kit and would spy on everybody. And I sort of modeled my early life after Harriet the Spy, and my fascination with espionage never really went away as I was a teenager and went to college -- it kind of always remained there in the back of my head. ENSOR: Tell us a little about the training. MORAN: We jumped out of planes and drove cars real fast. ... A lot of it essentially was training people to have social skills. We went down and lived at the CIA's facility, "the Farm" for several months, and we lived on this alternative reality with a fake country, a number of fake countries and fake heads of state, and we were expected to sort of embrace this alternative reality and live and breathe it as if it was true. ENSOR: Was the training useful for what you subsequently did as an officer? MORAN: Some aspects of the training were useful, and some aspects of the training that probably weren't useful to me were useful to other people. A lot of the training about detecting surveillance, being able to tell if you're being followed. ... And while it's not difficult, it does take a lot of practice to sort of become uber-aware of everything going on around you, and being able to take notes while you're driving, at the same time looking around. And also at the same time trying to appear natural, so that if you are being followed the person following you doesn't perceive that you know you're being followed. ENSOR: Hollywood presents the career you had as an enormously glamorous and dangerous profession. Is it? MORAN: It's not nearly as glamorous as it's portrayed in Hollywood -- the career of being a spy -- and that was kind of eye opening to realize. You know, certainly I didn't expect it to be James Bond to a T, but at the end of the day the CIA is a lot of people in sensible shoes sitting in cubicles, and that's kind of a reality that's probably a shock to a lot of people like me who come into the agency expecting something more glamorous. ... I've heard my book compared to the real-life "Alias" and I tend to think of it as the "anti-Alias." ENSOR: What's dirty about the business? MORAN: It's a dirty business because you're lying to people and you're using them, and that's what your job is. That's the reality of being a spy. You're not befriending people because you like them, or because you want to be friends with them, you think that they have some information that will be of value to the U.S. government. ENSOR: Do you think it's an organization that is broken? MORAN: I guess I do. I don't have the answers as to how the agency can adequately infiltrate terrorist networks or combat terrorism. I think that's an incredibly difficult question, but they certainly seem to be dragging their feet on addressing what is the most pressing issue for them as an organization and for us as a country, which is how do we get into these, how do we get information, how do we gather human intelligence on these terrorist networks. I feel that the agency has been incredibly slow to respond or change either its management style or its training or even the type of people that it recruits in order to combat that threat. ENSOR: Do you think Porter Goss might change it in a good way? MORAN: No. I would have been the first one to advocate changes at the agency on the heels of George Tenet's resignation. It doesn't seem to me -- and now I'm speaking obviously from an outsider's perspective -- that Porter Goss is taking the agency in a good direction. And from what I understand, he's sort of hunkering down, blaming a lot of leaks from within the agency to the press on problems the agency is having. I think what's going to occur is it will again become an organization that rather than trying to excise its warts will try to cover them up. ENSOR: What kind of an impact did having a secret career like this have on your personal life? MORAN: It's hard to lie to pretty much everybody who's important to you. My immediate family knew that I worked at the CIA but that was all they knew. They certainly had no idea what I was actually doing and probably would have been horrified if they did. So I ended up cutting off a lot of relationships with both friends and, to a certain extent, family members too as I became an increasingly insular person. ENSOR: Do you believe in espionage? MORAN: I still believe in the organization, I believe that it's necessary. Every country is going to have a spy service and ours should be the best. You know we're the last remaining superpower, we should have one of the best spy services there is and we don't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Web: http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: mailto:jmatk@t... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent Bug Sweeps, and Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory Grade Test Equipment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10559 From: G P Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Absolute insanity. > http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=322152 > > Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > Decision allows use of vehicle tracking device > without a warrant > > By BRENDAN LYONS, Staff writer 10560 From: Greg Horton Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:26pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS G P wrote: > Absolute insanity. > I am not so sure about that. In California, you don't need a warrant to put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the vehicle. So instead of fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands of dollars and maybe a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. You are going to follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the taxpayer a heap o' money? Greg 10561 From: Agent Geiger Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Yeah, that freedom thing is so expensive these days. --- "James M. Atkinson" wrote: > > > http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=322152 > > Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > Decision allows use of vehicle tracking device > without a warrant > > By BRENDAN LYONS, Staff writer > First published: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 > > In a decision that could dramatically affect > criminal investigations > nationwide, a federal judge has ruled police didn't > need a warrant when > they attached a satellite tracking device to the > underbelly of a car being > driven by a suspected Hells Angels operative. > > The ruling by U.S. District Judge David N. Hurd > clears the way for a > federal trial scheduled to begin next month in Utica > in which seven alleged > Hells Angels members and associates, including > several from the Capital > Region, face drug-trafficking charges. > > The use of satellite tracking devices has stirred > controversy and Hurd's > ruling differs from a decision last spring by a > Nassau County Court judge, > who decided police needed a warrant when they used > the technology to follow > a burglary suspect. > > The biker case broke open here last year with a > series of raids and arrests > across upstate New York. The case began in Utica, > but was expanded to > include an organized crime task force that spent > more than a year building > a methamphetamine-trafficking case against a group > of alleged outlaw bikers > from Troy to Arizona. > > During surveillance of the group, detectives > attached a global positioning > satellite device to a vehicle driven by Robert P. > Moran Jr., an Oneida > County attorney and Hells Angels associate with a > law office in Rome. They > put the device on Moran's car for two days in July > 2003 after he returned > from a one-day trip to Arizona, where police say he > purchased a large > quantity of methamphetamine. > > Over those two days, Moran drove across New York > state and allegedly made > drug deals with suspected Hells Angels members in > places such as New York > City and Troy, according to court records. > > Hurd opined that authorities wouldn't need a warrant > had they decided to > follow Moran, so using a GPS device was merely a > simpler way to track his > car "as it traveled on the public highways," he > wrote. "Moran had no > expectation of privacy in the whereabouts of his > vehicle on a public > roadway. Thus, there was no search or seizure and no > Fourth Amendment > implications in the use of the GPS device." > > Hurd's ruling follows a line of reasoning that's > widely supported by many > law enforcement agencies. Police contend using > tracking devices is no > different than if they followed a suspect's vehicle > in their own cars or by > using helicopters. > > Kevin Mulroy, Moran's attorney, said the issue, > which has brought > conflicting rulings across the nation, is > unsettling. > > "I think it's something the Supreme Court of the > United States is going to > have to hear," said Mulroy, a Syracuse attorney who > was formerly an > Onondaga County Court judge and assistant > prosecutor. "One would think that > before the police could install devices on your > property, to monitor your > movements, they would need a court order." > > A similar controversy arose in Washington two years > ago, when that state's > Supreme Court determined police had the right to > attach a satellite > tracking device to a murder suspect's car, but only > after obtaining a warrant. > > Detectives attached a GPS device to the man's car > for almost three weeks. > When they downloaded the data, it indicated he had > driven to an isolated > area north of Spokane. Police searched the area and > found the body of the > man's 9-year-old daughter. He later was convicted of > her murder, and the > verdict was upheld. > > GPS devices are increasingly becoming a tool for law > enforcement. Still, > their use has been controversial because police > agencies are not routinely > obtaining court orders to install the devices, which > rely on orbiting > satellites and cellular phone networks to pinpoint > their target. In many > states, law enforcement agencies also are using them > for less surreptitious > missions, such as tracking sex offenders and > parolees who are enrolled in > electronic monitoring programs. > > It's not clear what effect Hurd's decision will have > on their use, but it's > apparently the first federal ruling regarding GPS > devices and the need for > search warrants. > > Assistant U.S. Attorney David Grable, who is > prosecuting Moran and the > others, did not return a telephone call for comment. > > The use of GPS devices by police most recently made > national news in the > Laci Peterson case. Scott Peterson, the Modesto, > Calif., woman's husband, > was convicted of murdering her on Christmas Eve > 2002. In that case, police > obtained a court order to attach tracking devices to > three vehicles driven > by Peterson, who drove to a waterfront near where > the bodies of his wife > and the baby boy she was carrying were later found. > > While the GPS data was admitted in the Peterson > case, courts across the > country are tackling the issue as defense lawyers > challenge their > reliability and whether police have a right to > install them without a > warrant. Similar technology helps police track > cellular telephones, which > also are being used by police to find fugitives and > others. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and > Real Wiretappers. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > James M. Atkinson > Phone: (978) 546-3803 > Granite Island Group Fax: > (978) 546-9467 > 127 Eastern Avenue #291 > Web: http://www.tscm.com/ > Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: > mailto:jmatk@t... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent > Bug Sweeps, and > Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory > Grade Test Equipment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com 10562 From: G P Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Because anybody and everybody can now fix up your car with a GPS unit, without fear of civil or criminal prosecution. This court precedent puts very dangerous technology into the hands of the proletariat, without any form of checks and balances. Wait until somebody wires up your wife's car for sound, and you'll have a slightly different opinion about tracking technology. --- Greg Horton wrote: > > > G P wrote: > > > Absolute insanity. > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you > don't need a warrant to > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the > vehicle. So instead of > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands > of dollars and maybe > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. > You are going to > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way > that saves the > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > Greg > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > What would our lives be like without music, dance, > and theater? > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for > Good! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/UBhwlB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts > acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a > warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== > TSKS > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > 10563 From: G P Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:18am Subject: New Homeland Security Nomination http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002148439_homeland12.html "Chertoff headed the Justice Department's criminal division at the time of the attacks, and helped develop the USA Patriot Act, which greatly expanded the government's surveillance and detention powers. His role in crafting that law, a measure that has become a flash point for civil libertarians, is expected to bring sharp questioning in Senate confirmation hearings. The American Civil Liberties Union said yesterday that as an architect of the act, Chertoff seemed to view the Bill of Rights 'as an obstacle to national security rather than a guidebook for how to do security properly.'" 10564 From: fjansgmxnet Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:00am Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS --- In TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com, Greg Horton wrote: > > G P wrote: > You are going to > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > taxpayer a heap o' money? That's the point. If it costs a heap of money, they will follow only the real suspects of mayor crime offences. If it costs pennies, they will track or follow inconvenient citizens. If they want to follow the real suspects of mayor crime offences, they will get a warrant everywhere. This is only a problem, if they haven't any substantial leads. But why should they follow then, because of their preconceptions? (I am sure that they will not public the events, if their preconceptions failed.) Regards, Frank 10565 From: littledog Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:10pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS What about when these registered confidential informers do all this tracking, bugging, eavesdropping, and knotholing for no other reason than personal ones, and have always done so?> -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Horton [mailto:sgtpelon@e...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 8:13 PM > To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > > > > G P wrote: > > > Absolute insanity. > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you don't need a warrant to > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the vehicle. So instead of > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands of dollars and maybe > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. You are going to > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > Greg > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > 10566 From: G P Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:58am Subject: Quotable quote "The most powerful clique in these elitist groups have one objective in common - they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and national independence of the United States. To achieve this new [international] federalism, the United States must submerge its national sovereignty to a new political order. In my view, [the CFR] represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical." - Admiral Chester Ward, 16-year veteran of the Council on Foreign Relations 10567 From: Tech Sec Lab Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:56am Subject: Boston Scientific denies espionage will hit Irish plant http://www.ocean-research.net/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=17 Who says nothing exciting happens in the west of Ireland! :D 10568 From: Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:59am Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS You still need a warrant to monitor the vehicle if it goes on private property; just don't need one (right now) to monitor while on public roads. Doesn't sound like a "freedom" issue to me! Sgt. Kirk Sewell Illinois State Police, Technical Investigations 500 Iles Park Place, Suite 300 Springfield, IL 62718 (217) 524-6079 office (217) 467-4211 pager (217) 836-0919 mobile 10569 From: Michael Hammer Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:26:56 -0800, Greg Horton wrote: > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you don't need a warrant to > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the vehicle. So instead of > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands of dollars and maybe > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. You are going to > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > Greg > By that logic, I should just be able to break into (and wipe out) an internet host that is being used to do bad things. We will get it shut down/confiscated anyways by going through the legal steps so why not just cut to the chase. As tempting as that may be, I understand the reasons we have limitations. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. Requiring a court order is a check/balance on the activities involved. Mike 10570 From: littledog Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS I agree with you completely Frank. I now know what I am, an inconvenient citizen..Littledog> -----Original Message----- > From: fjansgmxnet [mailto:fjans@g...] > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005, 4:46 AM > To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [TSCM-L] Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > > > > > --- In TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com, Greg Horton wrote: > > > > G P wrote: > > You are going to > > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > That's the point. If it costs a heap of money, they will follow only > the real suspects of mayor crime offences. If it costs pennies, they > will track or follow inconvenient citizens. > > If they want to follow the real suspects of mayor crime offences, > they will get a warrant everywhere. This is only a problem, if they > haven't any substantial leads. But why should they follow then, > because of their preconceptions? (I am sure that they will not public > the events, if their preconceptions failed.) > > Regards, > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > 10571 From: Craig Meldrum Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:11pm Subject: Re: List Member Thanks Ois. As usual there is a flurry of media interest when some politician thinks they have been bugged and everyone jumps on the bandwagon for a day or two. I don't even know why they bothered to interview me, the article was almost a copy of one written 10 years ago after another such "scandal." Another minute to add to the accumulating 15 mins! Cheers Craig > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:36:21 -0000 > From: "Tech Sec Lab" > Subject: List Member > > Craig...YOUR FAMOUS!!! > > :D > > Congrats! > > -Ois 10572 From: Agent Geiger Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Excuse me, but that is nonsense. OK, I will shut off the GPS while he cuts through that private drive. I just first have to run the coordinates through my GIS database then delete that info out before I use it in court. I am a commissior for my local government, and I see this trivial splitting of hairs thing done all the time. I wish LE and gov't officials would remember that little oath that we ALL took to uphold the Constitution from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. I guess I need to keep a GPS jammer on me at all times, to block not only my cell phonem, but any potential LE from protecting me from myself. --- sewellr@i... wrote: > > > > > > You still need a warrant to monitor the vehicle if > it goes on private > property; just don't need one (right now) to monitor > while on public roads. > Doesn't sound like a "freedom" issue to me! > > Sgt. Kirk Sewell > Illinois State Police, Technical Investigations > 500 Iles Park Place, Suite 300 > Springfield, IL 62718 > (217) 524-6079 office > (217) 467-4211 pager > (217) 836-0919 mobile > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 10573 From: G P Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Bravo, it's hopeful to see that everyone hasn't gone completely mad just yet. --- Agent Geiger wrote: > > Excuse me, but that is nonsense. OK, I will shut > off > the GPS while he cuts through that private drive. I > just first have to run the coordinates through my > GIS database then delete that info out before I use > it in court. > > I am a commissior for my local government, and I see > this trivial splitting of hairs thing done all the > time. I wish LE and gov't officials would remember > that little oath that we ALL took to uphold the > Constitution from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. > > I guess I need to keep a GPS jammer on me at all > times, to block not only my cell phonem, but any > potential LE from protecting me from myself. 10574 From: G P Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:55pm Subject: speaking of GPS units Can the list members here that have experience with GPS trackers post some common installations that they've ran across? I would assume that unless using a unit with advanced correlation ability (such as reflected signals off of pavement etc), that the unit would have to be mounted with clear view of the sky and no obstructions. What are some common places for permanent installations, and where would you start looking first if you suspected a vehicle had a GPS tracking device installed? With this recent court ruling, would that also imply that cellular handsets planted in a vehicle would also be legal? With the Emergency 911 (E911) Act (no relation to Sept. 11, the bill was passed a year or so prior to the attacks), cellular telephones now must support geolocation capability up to a few meter resolution now. There would be no need for an elaborate GPS tracker if you could accomplish the same goal by wiring a cellphone into the vehicle (with the added benefit of a voice channel to listen in on conversations in the cockpit). Where would be the best place to mount one of them, and what would be the preferred technique for discovering one? Greg 10575 From: kondrak Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:54pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Expect to see miscreant law-vultures, like divorce attys exploit this... At 07:16 1/12/2005, you wrote: >Because anybody and everybody can now fix up your car >with a GPS unit, without fear of civil or criminal >prosecution. This court precedent puts very dangerous >technology into the hands of the proletariat, without >any form of checks and balances. > >Wait until somebody wires up your wife's car for >sound, and you'll have a slightly different opinion >about tracking technology. > >--- Greg Horton wrote: > > > > > > > G P wrote: > > > > > Absolute insanity. > > > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you > > don't need a warrant to > > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the > > vehicle. So instead of > > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands > > of dollars and maybe > > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. > > You are going to > > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way > > that saves the > > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > >======================================================== > > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts > > acquire speed, > > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a > > warning. > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > =================================================== > > TSKS > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > 10576 From: Hawkspirit Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:15pm Subject: Re: Digital Cell phone scanning Monitoring is quite complicated. You would have to monitor the forward set-up channel from the cell site that the mobile would receive and the reverse set up channel reply. After the base station and the mobile hand shake and authenticate then the forward control channel assigns downlink and uplink traffic channel frequencies. These will change every time the mobile is handed off to a new cell site. Roger Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:14:02 -0000 From: "fjansgmxnet" Subject: Re: Digital Cell phone scanning > So I ask you guys... > How easy it is to listen to cell phone conversation and what is the level of the threat? Can the estranged husband be listening to his wife? Or is the tech needed place it in the expert mode? Well, the tricks changed. In the digital world the estranged husband or the engaged investigator has to place a conventional bug in the cell phone of his wife. The best type of bugs I have seen are very small transmitters hidden in the accumlator pack of the cell phone, which could switched into a sleep mode to save power: Very fast to install and the victim feeds the bug with power in regular intervals whereever it goes. On Contras website (www.tetrascanner.com) there was a video from the German BSI showing this type of bug for a Motorola gsm phone. But I don't remember the exact link. The equipment to monitor digital cell phones at the air interfaces is expensive. Therefore I would expect it only at the "agency" level, if the folks don't know the current phone number you are using. Regards, Frank -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 10577 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Did you hear the one about the two guys arrested for telling lawyer jokes? http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/12/lawyer.jokes.arrest.ap/index.html Pair arrested for telling lawyer jokes Men at courthouse cited for disorderly conduct HEMPSTEAD, New York (AP) -- Did you hear the one about the two guys arrested for telling lawyer jokes? It happened this week to the founders of a group called Americans for Legal Reform, who were waiting in line to get into a Long Island courthouse. "How do you tell when a lawyer is lying?" Harvey Kash reportedly asked Carl Lanzisera. "His lips are moving," they said in unison. While some waiting to get into the courthouse giggled, a lawyer farther up the line Monday was not laughing. He told them to pipe down, and when they did not, the lawyer reported the pair to court personnel, who charged them with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor. "They just can't take it," Kash said of lawyers in general. "This violates our First Amendment rights." Dan Bagnuola, a spokesman for the Nassau County courts, said the men were "being abusive and they were causing a disturbance." He said he did not have the name of the lawyer who complained. Americans for Legal Reform monitors the courts and uses confrontational tactics to push for greater access for the public. The pair said that for years they have stood outside courthouses on Long Island and mocked lawyers. On Monday, however, Kash said he was due in court to answer a drunken driving charge from a year and a half ago. The men are due back in court on the disorderly conduct charge next month. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Web: http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: mailto:jmatk@t... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent Bug Sweeps, and Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory Grade Test Equipment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10578 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Are the glory days of electronic spying over­or just beginning? Listening In Are the glory days of electronic spying over­or just beginning? By Stephen Cass Submarines prowl the ocean floor, while ships above carefully skirt the limits of international waters. On dry land, guards patrol high fences surrounding acres of huge golf ball-shaped radar domes. In the skies, airplanes knife through the stratosphere, while higher up orbiting electronic ears listen to whispers from the planet below. They're all trolling a vast sea of electromagnetic signals in hopes of catching a terrorist plot in the making, a shady arms deal, economic intelligence, or a rogue nation building a weapon of mass destruction. This so-called signals intelligence, or Sigint, has been vital to the United States and its allies for decades. But, in the wake of 9/11 and the failure to capture Osama bin Laden, the shortcomings of the world's biggest interception system are apparent. The ships, planes, antennas, and satellites are the result of a triumph of Cold War engineering, designed to keep tabs on the Soviet Union and its allies. The question now is: how useful is the system against terrorists who know not to trust their satellite phones? How effective can it be in an age when almost untappable fiber-optic lines carry information at stupefying rates and cheap, off-the-shelf encryption systems can stump the most powerful supercomputers on earth? Given the veil of secrecy drawn by nations around their intelligence operations, these questions might seem unanswerable, but even top-secret agencies have to operate in the real world, making it possible to draw some conclusions. Those findings paint an intriguing picture of modern Sigint, in which the best way past a tough problem can be to solve a different one. Rather than the creation of ever more sensitive receivers or code-breaking computers, the hot areas of cloak-and-dagger information gathering include tapping fiber-optic cables (even at the bottom of the sea); using tiny bugging devices and old fashioned bribery, blackmail, and burglary to get at data before it has been encrypted; exploiting software flaws and poorly configured communications systems to bypass data-security measures; and automatically winnowing the vast amounts of intercepted communications. Big brother or white elephant? The old workhorse surveillance system described above is run by the United States­with the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as junior partners­under the secret 1947 UKUSA agreement. Often referred to as Echelon in the popular press, some fear it as the ultimate Big Brother: listening in on every telephone conversation, reading every e-mail, tracking every Web surfer around the globe. But these fears are greatly exaggerated, explains Gerhard Schmid, vice president of the European Parliament and rapporteur of a 2001 report to the parliament on the UKUSA system. Schmid notes an obvious fact that many seem to forget: only those communications that the system has access to in some way can be intercepted. "There is no special magic physics for secret services....The rest is movie stories, rumors, and nonsense," says Schmid. In effect, whether or not the Sigint system is of value boils down to a technical question: in the face of a telecommunications explosion that has brought e-mail, cellphones, beepers, instant messaging, fiber-optic cables, faxes, videoconferencing, and the World Wide Web to every corner of the globe, can the UKUSA intelligence agencies attain enough access to know what's going on? Of course, some communications are easier to access than others. Wireless communications in particular offer two key advantages­you can intercept them without physically tapping into the target's communications system, and there is no way to detect that they have been intercepted. "Microwave, radio, telephone, walkie-talkie­communications that are in the air are all interceptible by some sort of antenna in the right place," says Jeffrey T. Richelson, author of The U.S. Intelligence Community (Westview Press, Boulder, Colo., 1999). Much of the UKUSA system's physical assets around the world and orbiting above it are devoted to making sure there is an antenna in the right place. Listening posts of varying scale dot the earth­including on top of every U.S. embassy. Many are attached to military installations, while some are operated remotely. Others are mobile, on navy ships and submarines and on specially modified planes such as the EP-3 that crash-landed in China in 2001. For decades these eavesdroppers provided much of the intelligence community's Sigint. But, for tactical and technical reasons, the well began to dry up at the start of the 1990s. The biggest tactical problem was that the Soviet Union's collapse kicked the legs out from under a monitoring network built up over decades. "There were some easy things about the Soviet Union," says James Bamford, author of Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency (Doubleday, New York, 2001). "The first one was you always knew where it was. You could invest a lot of money in a big listening post in Japan near Vladivostok because the Soviet navy was always going to be there." Apart from being easily located on a map, the USSR also generated a steady stream of routine radio and microwave transmissions to provide grist for the intelligence wheel. "It's completely different when you're going after sporadic miniwars and terrorism," says Bamford. The technical issues arose from the Internet-driven telecommunications explosion, the most serious consequence of which is the ever increasing shift toward fiber-optic-based international communications. The shift was due to the commercially attractive fact that one fiber can carry 128 times as much digital traffic as a satellite transponder­over 240 000 channels, each carrying 64 kb/s. Breaking into Davy Jones's locker Before the widespread use of fiber-optic cables, geosynchronous satellite constellations such as Intelsat and the Russian-sponsored Intersputnik carried much of the international communications traffic. Such links can be comprehensively monitored by placing a receiving station in each satellite's transmission footprint. And thanks to the global range of the territories belonging to the UKUSA countries, exactly such a collection of stations was built, from Pine Gap in central Australia to Morwenstow in England and Sugar Grove in Virginia [see map]. In contrast, cables have to be tapped directly. While this is easy enough to do if the cable makes landfall in a territory controlled by a UKUSA country, someone has to visit the cable clandestinely if it doesn't, typically in a submarine. Fiber-optic cables are the toughest to crack: fibers don't radiate helpful electromagnetic fields (as did the old metal cables) that can be detected with an inductively coupled pick-up collar. Eavesdroppers first solved this problem by targeting the signal-boosting repeater stations strung along the cables. Early repeaters had to convert the signal from light into electricity and back again in order to amplify it, and in its electronic stage, the signal could be tapped externally in much the same way as a metal cable. But the development of erbium-doped fiber amplifiers, in which the signal is boosted without ever being converted into electricity, called for a new approach. In theory, it's easy to find out what's being transmitted along a fiber. "All you have to do is put a little bit of a bend in the fiber and look at the light that comes off it," says Jim Hayes, president of the Fiber Optic Association, a professional society for the industry. The signal loss in the fiber would be just a few tenths of a decibel, making the tap undetectable. "But practically," he adds, "it's not so easy." The problem, Hayes explains, is that, in a typical cable, the fiber in question is one of a dozen hair-thin strands of glass, which are embedded inside a laser-welded, hermetically sealed, 3-mm-diameter stainless steel tube. This tube is in turn covered by a few centimeters of reinforcing steel wire and cables carrying 10 kV of dc power, all at a depth of a couple of thousand meters. "It's not impossible­but it certainly pushes the definition of practical," Hayes notes. The easiest interception technique is to open up one of the repeaters to get at the fibers, but, Hayes cautions, "the whole issue of resealing it is quite difficult because you have to do it perfectly." Parts must either be sourced from the manufacturer or duplicated exactly. Despite these challenges, "the U.S. has been reconfiguring the submarine USS Jimmy Carter for [fiber-optic tapping]," says Richelson. The Jimmy Carter, one of a new Seawolf class, is being extensively modified for a range of covert missions by the introduction of a new hull section, which will facilitate the use of remotely operated vehicles, surveillance equipment, and the transport of Navy Seals, the U.S. Navy's special operations warfare specialists. The sub is also being fitted with an advanced communications mast, which will allow it both to eavesdrop on radio signals and transmit information back to base. The Jimmy Carter should be fully operational by mid-2005 [see illustration]. Bond, James Bond But a big remaining challenge, according to John Pike, a defense expert and founder of GlobalSecurity.org, are fiber-optic cables that stay on land. "I think that one of the things that [Navy Seals] spend a fair amount of time doing is [going] ashore...and walking to the nearest land line," says Pike. "They were doing that in Iraq a decade ago." Pike believes that this may also be how fiber-optic communications in North Korea and other countries are monitored: "It's cat and mouse, we try to see how many taps we can put on [chief of state Kim Jong II's] fiber-optic network, and the Dear Leader runs around and tries to catch them." Another, more aggressive approach to the land-line problem is to force an opponent onto the airwaves. "One of the things the United States has been doing since the middle of 2002 is systematically taking apart Iraq's land-line communications with air strikes, to force them to communicate via channels that are more readily compromised," says Pike. Indeed, this may be the reason why U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell was able to present incriminating Iraqi telephone conversations to the United Nations last February. When a more subtle approach than aerial bombardment is called for, agencies like the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) can call upon organizations such as the Special Collection Service (SCS), a joint NSA-CIA covert group headquartered in Beltsville, Md. "What this group does is the more surreptitious black-bag operations," explains Wayne Madsen, who previously worked at the NSA and is now a senior fellow at the Electronic Privacy Information Center (Washington, D.C.). Black-bag operations can include breaking into embassies or facilities of communications providers and stealing information or installing bugs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's been extremely difficult to break Russian ciphers" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By bugging a computer or communications system, information can be captured before it's sent through a fiber-optic cable, author Bamford observes. A tiny microphone dropped into a keyboard can pick up the sound made by the keys as they are struck and transmit the sounds to a nearby receiver. Different keys, according to Bamford, "sound different­each has a specific signature." Those signatures can be used to reconstruct what was typed. The SCS also allows the Sigint community "to be proactive, to go after information rather than sit and wait," explains Bamford. Another important SCS mission is to recruit people who work for targeted governments, like cryptographic clerks or systems administrators, to ensure access to sensitive information, such as cipher keys. When successful, such activities also allow the NSA to avoid another steep hurdle: encryption. Say what? The NSA claims to be the world's largest single employer of mathematicians and has always projected an image of being a code-breaking outfit par excellence, in the mold of the legendary British Bletchley Park, which succeeded in breaking the German Enigma and other ciphers during World War II. But these days, there may be some misdirection in that image. The NSA has "covered up some quite spectacular successes at breaking into cipher systems...by pretending that they were simply better at mathematics and computer science, whereas what was usually happening was some form of sabotage, blackmail, theft, corruption, or whatever," says Ross Anderson, a reader in security engineering at the University of Cambridge and cryptographic systems expert. (When contacted by Spectrum for this article, a spokesperson for the NSA said that it does not comment on operational matters.) NSA's code-breaking efforts began to run into serious trouble relatively early in the Cold War. According to Bamford, immediately after World War II the NSA captured German code-breaking machines that allowed them to read advanced teleprinter ciphers that the Soviets were using at the time. But because of a suspected spy, the Russians found out and in 1948 changed all their ciphers overnight. The next day became known as Black Friday, reports Bamford. "From that date on, it's been extremely difficult to break Russian ciphers. Most of what the NSA got, they got from occasional busts." A bust is a mistake in the implementation or operation of a cipher system. "Sometimes they don't know they're making a mistake. A clerk is typing away and all of a sudden the crypto system disengages," explains Bamford. This can give a code-breaker enough of an opening to be able to go back and read the entire message. The solution was to go around the problem. To divine Soviet diplomatic plans, the UKUSA agencies might track a meeting between a third-world diplomat and the Kremlin. When the diplomat sent a coded report back to the home government, the spooks would go after this target's weaker encryption. "Big governments like the United States and Russia use home-brewed [cipher systems]. But they've learned through 50 years of experience to do that well," says Brian Gladman, a former deputy director of the NATO Shape Technical Center who has worked with Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), the British equivalent of the NSA. "Smaller countries don't have that experience, and [when they] build home-brewed ciphers, they don't do very well." Countries­including Middle Eastern nations­have also purchased commercial cryptographic machines, but may not have always operated them properly. (There are also rumors that the NSA obtained the default keys to some units prior to delivery.) In any case, the rise of ubiquitous computer communications has allowed the emergence of widely available strong cipher systems, such as public key cryptography, which rely on mathematical functions that would take the greatest supercomputer on earth millennia to break. Initially, this caused something of a panic in intelligence circles and sparked the so-called crypto wars of the 1990s, when the U.S. government arrested Phil Zimmerman, the creator of one popular public key program, Pretty Good Privacy, and attempted to impose stringent export controls on cryptographic software. But the underlying mathematics was already freely circulating. Non-U.S. companies threatened to take over the expanding market for online security products and the government eventually relented. But even with theoretically unbreakable encryption available to anyone with Internet access, all is not lost for the code-breakers; once again the solution is to go around the problem. Nowadays, "exploits against cipher systems involve failures in design and implementation rather than in the underlying cryptographic algorithms," as during World War II, explains Anderson. The same kind of flaws and foul-ups­buggy software, poorly configured systems­that allow computer worms to wreak havoc on the Internet, combined with SCS-style activities, give agencies like the NSA a continuing window of access to the activities of rogue nations and the businesses they deal with. Indeed, the adoption of new telecommunications technologies has not been all bad for the intelligence agencies. Actually, the widespread deployment of cellphones in countries with historically underdeveloped communications infrastructures has made surveillance easier, especially of nongovernment targets, like terrorists. "There's more and more cellphone coverage, even in places like Pakistan," says Madsen. Pike agrees: "Incomes rose faster than land lines could be put in....Since so much of the economic activity in these emerging economies was focused in a few primary cities, it was relatively easy to overlay a cellphone system." And it is exactly these cities that are likely to host an eavesdropping U.S. embassy or consulate. Cell- and satellite phones can also reveal a caller's location. In cooperative countries, such information may be extracted directly from the cellphone network, while in other regions the location may be determined if multiple listening stations (possibly including satellites) can pick up the phone's transmissions. It was by pinpointing the origin of a satellite phone call that the United States determined the coordinates for the 1998 cruise missile attack on one of Osama bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan. Drowning in data But these successes in keeping 21st century communications an open book have just compounded the biggest issue of all: volume. "It's hard to comprehend the enormous increase in communications in the last 15 years....You're talking two million pieces of communication an hour from one listening post," says Bamford. More and more of the NSA's vast computer resources are devoted to simply storing and cataloging the torrent of raw Sigint that pours into its Fort Meade, Md., headquarters. The agency's ultimate problem is that there are just too many people on earth to monitor everyone. The only solution is to throw away as much as possible of the information as soon as possible after it's been collected. "The electrical engineers and computer scientists at NSA spend a lot of their time developing [automatic] filter systems," says Bamford. Strategies like focusing on telephone calls from a particular installation, searching for specific words and phrases in e-mails, or using voice recognition techniques [see "Getting the Message"] are all deployed in the hope of picking up a terrorist giving orders rather than someone arguing with their significant other. While it is unlikely that any government, army, or terrorist group will ever again have its plans as comprehensively exposed as the Nazi war machine's, Sigint should still be effective against specific targets­but, as 9/11 and the search for Osama bin Laden prove, only as part of an integrated intelligence strategy that prevents it from turning a deaf ear. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Probe Further The European Parliament's report on the Echelon eavesdropping network can be found online at http://www.europarl.eu.int/tempcom/echelon/rrechelon_en.htm. The National Security Agency's Web site (http://www.nsa.gov/) has information on its history and outreach programs. An open-source public key encryption application, Gnu Privacy Guard, can be found at http://www.gnupg.org/. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We Expertly Hunt Real Spies, Real Eavesdroppers, and Real Wiretappers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Web: http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 Email: mailto:jmatk@t... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Class, Professional, Ethical, and Competent Bug Sweeps, and Wiretap Detection using Sophisticated Laboratory Grade Test Equipment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10579 From: Gregory Hicks Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:16pm Subject: [IP] No expectation of privacy in public? In a pig's eye! (was: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS) From: Michael Hammer Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:00:57 -0500 > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:26:56 -0800, Greg Horton > wrote: > > > > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you don't need a warrant to > > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the vehicle. So instead of > > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands of dollars and maybe > > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. You are going to > > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > > > Greg > By that logic, I should just be able to break into (and wipe out) an > internet host that is being used to do bad things. We will get it > shut down/confiscated anyways by going through the legal steps so why > not just cut to the chase. As tempting as that may be, I understand the > reasons we have limitations. > > Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. > Requiring a court order is a check/balance on the activities involved. > > Mike This is also being discussed on Dave Farber's IP list... See the message below - Just because we *CAN* do something, does not mean we *SHOULD* do it... Regards, Gregory Hicks ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:46:47 -0500 Subject: [IP] No expectation of privacy in public? In a pig's eye! From: David Farber To: Ip Orwell was an amateur djf ------ Forwarded Message From: Lauren Weinstein Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:38:28 -0800 To: Cc: Subject: No expectation of privacy in public? In a pig's eye! Dave, It's time to blow the lid off this "no expectation of privacy in public places" argument that judges and law enforcement now spout out like demented parrots in so many situations. Technology has rendered that argument meaningless -- unless we intend to permit a pervasive surveillance slave society to become our future -- which apparently is the goal among some parties. It is incredibly disingenuous to claim that cameras (increasingly tied to face recognition software) and GPS tracking devices (which could end up being standard in new vehicles as part of their instrumentation black boxes), etc. are no different than cops following suspects. Technology will effectively allow everyone to be followed all of the time. Unless society agrees that everything you do outside the confines of your home and office should be available to authorities on demand -- even retrospectively via archived images and data -- we are going down an incredibly dangerous hole. I use the "slimy guy in the raincoat" analogy. Let's say the government arranged for everyone to be followed at all times in public by slimy guys in raincoats. Each has a camera and clipboard, and wherever you go in public, they are your shadow. They keep snapping photos of where you go and where you look. They're constantly jotting down the details of your movements. When you go into your home, they wait outside, ready to start shadowing you again as soon as you step off your property. Every day, they report everything they've learned about you to a government database. Needless to say, most people would presumably feel incredibly violated by such a scenario, even though it's all taking place in that public space where we're told that we have no expectation of privacy. Technology is creating the largely invisible equivalent of that guy in the raincoat, ready to tail us all in perpetuity. If we don't control him, he will most assuredly control us. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@p... or lauren@v... or lauren@p... Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, Fact Squad - http://www.factsquad.org Co-Founder, URIICA - Union for Representative International Internet Cooperation and Analysis - http://www.uriica.org Moderator, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com - - - > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Gregory Hicks > Reply-To: Gregory Hicks > Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:42:03 -0800 (PST) > To: > Cc: > Subject: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > > Dave: > > For IP if you wish... > > http://timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=322152 > > Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > Decision allows use of vehicle tracking device without a warrant > > By BRENDAN LYONS, Staff writer > First published: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 > > In a decision that could dramatically affect criminal investigations > nationwide, a federal judge has ruled police didn't need a warrant when > they attached a satellite tracking device to the underbelly of a car > being driven by a suspected Hells Angels operative. > > [...snip...] > > All Times Union materials copyright 1996-2005, Capital Newspapers > Division of The Hearst Corporation, Albany, N.Y. > > ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as ghicks@c... To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3400 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: ghicks@c... I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today. "A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the decision." - Benjamin Franklin "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton 10580 From: Nalesnik, Matthew Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:16am Subject: Psychic Antennas http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/1/12/91524.shtml Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2005 9:07 a.m. EST Yelsin Protected by 'Psychic' KGB Claiming that "Americans have created radiators of modulated signals, which control people's behavior thousands of kilometers from afar," Pravda.ru reports that former Russian President Boris Yeltsin was protected by a KGB unit who defended against "psychic" attacks. Yuri Malin, a former KGB officer, tells Pravda that "there was a special department in the structure of Russian secret services to protect top officials from malicious intentions of scientists and extrasensory individuals, who could create devices that were capable of affecting human psychology." Malin worked as a consultant of Boris Yeltsin's Federal Security Service, the successor to the KGB. Malin says that Putin does not "take much" interest in the unit. "There were such people in Boris Yeltsin's team, though. There was a special department, which was dealing with unconventional technologies to manipulate the human mind," he claims. Malin says the unit was formed when someone found an eavesdropping device in the house of a Russian government official. "It was actually not a microphone, but a directional antenna. Specialists concluded that the antenna had been installed in the office to exert a psychological influence on the president," he said. Malin says that in the early 90s there were about 20 institutes which developed a variety of extrasensory devices used by the security forces and others. During the Yeltsin years, Malin says the Russian goverment spent 500 million rubles on such programs. Apparently Yeltsin was very much in favor of the efforts. Malin recalled that security agents "could not let a button of Yeltsin's shirt disappear: it was believed that extrasensory individuals could put the evil eye on the president with the help of any little thing that Yeltsin owned." 10581 From: Lou Novacheck Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS HEAR! HEAR! Or, depending which side you're on SIEG HEIL! Agent Geiger wrote: Excuse me, but that is nonsense. OK, I will shut off the GPS while he cuts through that private drive. I just first have to run the coordinates through my GIS database then delete that info out before I use it in court. I am a commissior for my local government, and I see this trivial splitting of hairs thing done all the time. I wish LE and gov't officials would remember that little oath that we ALL took to uphold the Constitution from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. I guess I need to keep a GPS jammer on me at all times, to block not only my cell phonem, but any potential LE from protecting me from myself. --- sewellr@i... wrote: > > > > > > You still need a warrant to monitor the vehicle if > it goes on private > property; just don't need one (right now) to monitor > while on public roads. > Doesn't sound like a "freedom" issue to me! > > Sgt. Kirk Sewell > Illinois State Police, Technical Investigations > 500 Iles Park Place, Suite 300 > Springfield, IL 62718 > (217) 524-6079 office > (217) 467-4211 pager > (217) 836-0919 mobile > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 10582 From: tali whacker Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS So when Mr. Smiths car drives onto Mr. Does driveway they'll record/use the data how? Will they say he traveled to on 01202004 Myfreedomsrgoinga Way but we deleted the data that reflect where his vehicle may have traveled after his last "legally" tracked position. Since 99% of roadways are public, what difference does it make if "You still need a warrant to monitor the vehicle if it goes on private property" since the "legally unwarranted" data collected would already pin the vehicle to a specific location. Just as the war on terrorism "renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions.", the supposingly stringent process (put in place to preserve privacy rights and indiscriminate surveillance) to acquire warrants too I'm afraid will become increasingly "obsolete" more and more over time. On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:59:43 -0600, sewellr@i... wrote: > > > > > > You still need a warrant to monitor the vehicle if it goes on private > property; just don't need one (right now) to monitor while on public roads. > Doesn't sound like a "freedom" issue to me! > > Sgt. Kirk Sewell > Illinois State Police, Technical Investigations > 500 Iles Park Place, Suite 300 > Springfield, IL 62718 > (217) 524-6079 office > (217) 467-4211 pager > (217) 836-0919 mobile > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > > ________________________________ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 10583 From: Guy Urbina Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:08pm Subject: GPS tracking system signal inhibitors Hi all, With all the recent chatter about GPS tracking, what are the legal ramifications of owning or selling a small GPS signal inhibitor? With the proliferation of GPS trackers seemingly ubiquitous, it seems like a good idea to prevent unauthorized people from tracking your movements in a vehicle. I've fabricated a few small devices that transmit a CW carrier under 50mw in the L1 frequency range. (1575.42Mhz) It effectively overdrives the front end of COTS GPS receivers.(Garmin, SIRF, Motorola etc.) (Most trackers use L1 receivers in their systems) Within a 10' radius, it effectively prevents a GPS receiver from locking on to get a position fix. Other than getting FCC type approval certification, Would these proposed devices be illegal to own or sell? Right now they are bench prototypes. I appreciate any constructive feedback. \R -Guy 10584 From: Bill & Tracy McDonnell Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:05pm Subject: Re: speaking of GPS units Is the satellite they use to track GPS the Chameleon? By the way,I live in Ohio and the GPS they had on the SUV's trailer hitch was thrown out by the Appeals Court. We don't believe that the Ohio Supreme is going to touch it. The case thrown out is already a big deal in Constitutional Issues. Many blessings~~~ Bill & Tracy McDonnell Matthew 7:16 www.bigdaddydanes.com ----- Original Message ----- From: G P To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:55 PM Subject: [TSCM-L] speaking of GPS units Can the list members here that have experience with GPS trackers post some common installations that they've ran across? I would assume that unless using a unit with advanced correlation ability (such as reflected signals off of pavement etc), that the unit would have to be mounted with clear view of the sky and no obstructions. What are some common places for permanent installations, and where would you start looking first if you suspected a vehicle had a GPS tracking device installed? With this recent court ruling, would that also imply that cellular handsets planted in a vehicle would also be legal? With the Emergency 911 (E911) Act (no relation to Sept. 11, the bill was passed a year or so prior to the attacks), cellular telephones now must support geolocation capability up to a few meter resolution now. There would be no need for an elaborate GPS tracker if you could accomplish the same goal by wiring a cellphone into the vehicle (with the added benefit of a voice channel to listen in on conversations in the cockpit). Where would be the best place to mount one of them, and what would be the preferred technique for discovering one? Greg ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 10585 From: Greg Horton Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:22pm Subject: Re: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS fjansgmxnet wrote: If it costs pennies, they will track or follow inconvenient citizens. I would like to see where you work, that your bean counters would let you track dozens of innocent citizens. Cops are always going to try to follow people that they think are involved in crime so they can stop the crime. We don't just pick out John Q Citizen and follow him because our bosses would probably put a boot up our rear for not doing anything productive. And as far as getting a warrant for everything we did, Frank we would never get anything done. If you investigate somebody, and nothing turns up, you close the investigation and move on. Many times it only takes an hour or so before you realize the information you received was probably false. And don't forget, the device that you put on the car only tells you where the individual has been, you still have to have eyes on him so you can see if the individual is actually involved in a crime. The tracking device is only a small tool to use in your investigation. Greg > > > --- In TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com, Greg Horton wrote: > > > > G P wrote: > > You are going to > > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > That's the point. If it costs a heap of money, they will follow only > the real suspects of mayor crime offences. If it costs pennies, they > will track or follow inconvenient citizens. > > If they want to follow the real suspects of mayor crime offences, > they will get a warrant everywhere. This is only a problem, if they > haven't any substantial leads. But why should they follow then, > because of their preconceptions? (I am sure that they will not public > the events, if their preconceptions failed.) > > Regards, > Frank > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 10586 From: Greg Horton Date: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS Sorry Littledog, I was talking about the police. I agree with you that some CI's may abuse their relationship with the police. But then shame on the officers that let themselves get sucked into something like that without looking for some other indicators that would affirm or rebut what the CI told them. Greg littledog wrote: > > What about when these registered confidential informers do all this > tracking, bugging, eavesdropping, and knotholing for no other reason > than personal ones, and have always done so?> -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Horton [mailto:sgtpelon@e...] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005, 8:13 PM > > To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Ruling gives cops leeway with GPS > > > > > > > > G P wrote: > > > > > Absolute insanity. > > > > > I am not so sure about that. In California, you don't need a > warrant to > > put a tracker on unless you hardwire it to the vehicle. So instead of > > fielding a six man surveillance team for thousands of dollars and maybe > > a helo or plane, you do the same thing for pennies. You are going to > > follow the suspect anyway, why not do it in a way that saves the > > taxpayer a heap o' money? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > =================================================== TSKS > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TSCM-L/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > TSCM-L-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > >