From: Matt Paulsen Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:56pm Subject: RE: Court rejects infrared drug search " AND, since when is "the area common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? Or below.... " The crystal ball shows aquifers and sinkholes in your future. Another peanut in the gallery added... -----Original Message----- From: MailExp [mailto:mailexp@o...] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:43 PM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search Not advocating either, BUT - how is it an intrusion when you don't know, feel or suffer the presence of an observation that you did not know was taking place from 1000' above your head? AND, since when is "the area common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? It does not for any other right or law. It would be nicer to see someone in a courtroom apply common sense and logic, instead of wasting time making people file more papers just to do their job. Just another viewpoint from the peanut gallery... -----Original Message----- From: Mitch D [mailto:rockdriver@y...] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:33 PM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search Not advocating an idiot growing pot plants but;Glad someone in a courtroom still understands "Curtilage".......... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 6844 From: MailExp Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:16am Subject: RE: Court rejects infrared drug search Canadian law is obviously different than US, although I don't know that this has been successfully challenged in the US. Anyone? More facts are arguably needed here for this discussion. Air space above a property has no intellectual value; and does not belong to the property owner. Therefore, use of it and the surrounding information that results, should be fair game. If the ONLY basis for his conviction was this, then I could see issues. However, it does not seem to be in this case. Hopefully this was only the start of the constable's PC and it progressed from there. We are missing part of the story. I am surprised to see Canada having issue with this though. From a country that grants applications for our Title III equivalent on an enormous basis (over a thousand a day, yes that is correct) I see though only thing coming from this is paperwork, with a standard approval. It seems as though they want court involvement on everything, which in the end only helps the LEA. I threw away my crystal ball a long time ago. Ed -----Original Message----- From: Matt Paulsen [mailto:mpaulsen6@a...] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:56 AM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search " AND, since when is "the area common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? Or below.... " The crystal ball shows aquifers and sinkholes in your future. Another peanut in the gallery added... -----Original Message----- From: MailExp [mailto:mailexp@o...] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:43 PM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search Not advocating either, BUT - how is it an intrusion when you don't know, feel or suffer the presence of an observation that you did not know was taking place from 1000' above your head? AND, since when is "the area common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? It does not for any other right or law. It would be nicer to see someone in a courtroom apply common sense and logic, instead of wasting time making people file more papers just to do their job. Just another viewpoint from the peanut gallery... -----Original Message----- From: Mitch D [mailto:rockdriver@y...] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:33 PM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search Not advocating an idiot growing pot plants but;Glad someone in a courtroom still understands "Curtilage".......... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 6845 From: Craig Snedden Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:33am Subject: RE: 2nd sweeper....Long Post. My apologies Hi Andy, Thanks for the feedback. Only one problem.... The Theft Act 1968 is not a UK wide act. Here in Scotland we have no codified legislation covering theft. It is a common law crime..... (Which is what makes my life such fun..!) I hadn't thought of it in relation to the question, as I was thinking about the Telco's position on "permitted equipment", some of which you will know can be used as a type of physical tap. In my experience Telco's take no heed to any "permitted equipment" installed by an end user after the network connection into the building (what I call the "private side"). But I concede the point that if anyone were to be charged with an offence then this would be a possible route and my thanks for pointing it out. However, in pondering this one further, I can see (and have experience of dealing with) theft of electricity offences as being relatively easily provable, but with telecommunications you are not paying for the volume of electrons you use, but by a tariff set on time of day, distance involved and duration of the call made. A physical tap could therefore be looked upon as another "extension" on the line, only connected when the master instrument (the target) is in use. So long as the device is is not being used to make surreptitious calls unbeknown to the billpayer. I think it would therefore be difficult to prove any material loss of revenue by the telco or cost to the billpayer (meaning no additional charges appearing on the phonebill as a result of the device being connected)..... Comments? Do you (or anyone else on the list) know of any reference cases (British) that can be quoted? As far as the Data Protection Act goes, it is also an offence to obtain or attempt to obtain information subject to the act which you (i.e. the "attacker") know (or should reasonably know) you are not entitled to. (Ignorance of what you are and are not entitled to being no defence...!!!). As I said, a minefield which for the purposes of this discussion I was going to ignore. :-) Oh happy days! Best regards Craig -----Original Message----- From: Andy M [mailto:asmoore@a...] Sent: 25 January 2003 11:15 To: Craig Snedden Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] 2nd sweeper....Long Post. My apologies Craig, I think that you'll find that a physical tap to phone lines in the UK constitutes theft (Theft Act 1968) as 'absrtacting electricity'. You're right with regards the RF devices. I'd suggest that the Data Protection Act is more applicable to the information 'defender', as oposed to the 'attacker' as the 'defender' is expected to conduct risk analysis and implement such measures "as are reasonable" to maintain the confidentiality of sensitive data. The UK's sadly lacking in legislation to protect proprietry data (as the US has) so we're wide open as regards industrial/economic esopioage...... Andy M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Snedden" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 3:52 PM Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] 2nd sweeper....Long Post. My apologies > My apologies in advance for the length of this posting. Got carried away > with myself. > > :~ (sheepish smile) > > > To follow up Vance's post, I believe the situation in the UK criminal > justice system would be different in as much as; > > 1. > > Ownership and possession of a transmitting device of any type is not a crime > within mainland UK. Unauthorised transmission or reception of RF emissions > is.... > > 2. > > The connection of any type of device (which would include a simple parallel > connection to a "speaker") to the "private" side of a telecommunications > system (PBX) (or single line) is not "normally" a criminal offence (however > there are lots of potholes with the Data Protection Act which fall into > place at this point - a minefield which for the purposes of this discussion > I shall ignore.). > > The principal exception being any device which might be deemed to cause > "damage or disruption to the public telephone system - i.e. the carrier > network. This would be a point for the courts to decide. > > 3. > > The connection of any device to the "private" side of a PBX (or single line) > can only be done with the knowledge and consent of the system owner (usually > whoever pays the phonebill). > > > So...... What does all that mean? > > > Scenario 1. > > If a "stand alone" (mic & tx) transmitter was discovered on the premises of > a client which had been planted by a third party then the client is not the > person responsible for either the tx or rx of any signal. Is he/she expected > to know if the person who planted it has the necessary licence? Likewise, is > the specialist expected to know if the buggist has the necessary licence? In > law, no: Therefore, no trouble to the client if he leaves the device in > situ. If he left it in situ and later reported it to the authorities, only > the buggist (or any person found to be listening to the tx freq) not having > the required authority to tx/rx on that freq (emission type, power etc.) > would face any criminal charge. > > > Scenario 2. > > If the specialist discovers a device connected to the "private" side of the > telephone system and brings it to the attention of the system owner, then > the call is with the system owner to decide whether to advise any > responsible authority. If the device is left and later found to be a > "hazard" to the public network, then the system owner, being knowledgeable > about it's presence, would possibly be liable, as would be the buggist if > caught. > > > Scenario 3. > > A device having been found on the public network side should be reported > firstly to the network provider. (They will take a dim view of anyone, TSCM > "professional" or not, being anywhere near thier equipment). Omission to > report may result in someone being pursued for having "endangered the > integrity of the network". However, who that someone might be is another > question. Certainly the buggist if caught. Possibly the system owner if he > sanctioned the device to remain in situ. (reason being that you are engaged > by the client and are acting at his direction. So long as you make it clear > (in writing) that your advice is to inform the network operator asap, then > the courts would have to take the view that you are not acting "in concert" > with any other person and therefore have no responsibility for breaking any > applicable law).... > > Clear...? No I thought not. > > Interestingly, this follows from Vance's point that to leave the "bug" in > situ and use it as corroboration then any material gained from it would be > inadmissable as evidence since it was obtained from an illegal source. Here > in the UK, that approach would really depend on whether the "bug" was deemed > to be "illegal" in the first place...... > > Certainly the unlicensed rx of any signal tx by the device would be illegal. > But, would the feeding of "chicken feed" into such a bug and seeing who > reacted to it be classed as an illegal transmission...? > > It might be argued not, since I did not switch the transmitter on and cause > it to actually tx (it was the buggist) ("A big boy did it and ran > away..!!"). > > Another might argue that it is illegal, since they might argue that I > should, as a TSCM "professional" be aware that the tx from such a device is > likely to be illegal and should therefore have taken steps to switch it > off..... My defence to that one being that I did not know if the device was > legal or not and therefore left it on in an effort to trace it's ownership. > It might have belonged to the Security Services for all I knew....... > > > Anyone know any UK caselaw on this? I can't find any right now. > > > In truth, reporting such an incident to the police here would most likely be > met with a blank stare and little if no response. The telecomms would > certainly respond (mostly by just removing the object from the network). > > :-) > > Craig > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ocean Group [mailto:inertia@o...] > Sent: 22 January 2003 20:21 > To: TSCM Group > Subject: [TSCM-L] 2nd sweeper.... > > > I had a chat with a lawyer friend and she informed me that the specialist > would not be charged as an accessory because the planting of the bug was not > a joint enterprise between the specialist and the 3rd party(the bugger,em > shall we say the bug planter.). The specialist would also have no reason to > suspect that the client was acting in bad fate(unless he did) etc etc and it > does not make the specialist liable by assuming that the client would report > it. > > However interesting enough, she said that should the client keep the bug and > "use" it, for any incrimination, the information would be naturally enough > inadmissable but the specialist could be very well charged for accessory to > the fact. So the moral of the story is, if you find a bug, a- to not give it > to the client unless he is totally trustworthy or b- disable etc take > reasonable precautions etc..... > > > This is the situation as regards the Irish courts however I'd assume it's a > pretty standard issue. > > All the best, > > Vance Deran > > Ocean Group, > Technical Security Division, > Ireland. > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 21/01/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 21/01/2003 6846 From: Izaac Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: tscming a lan On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 01:45:32AM -0500, Hugo Drax wrote: > firewall protecting the device, IDS/logging system residing in the cabinet ... produces it output /on paper./ -- ___ ___ . . ___ \ / |\ |\ \ _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__ 6847 From: A Grudko Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search - Original Message - From: MailExp > Air space above a property has no intellectual value; and does not belong to the property owner. Therefore, use of it and the surrounding information that results, should be fair game. I'm not so sure. Are you happy to have Admiral Poindexter and Gerry Springer's TV crew in a black helicopter with various 'black boxes' hovering over your bedroom? Andy Grudko (British), Grad I.S, South Africa SIRA investigators Reg. No. 8642 www.grudko.com , andy@g... . Est. 1981. International investigations (+27 12) 244 0255 - 244 0256 (Fax). IPA, SACI, WAD, CALI, UKPIN, IWWA. When you need it done right - first time 6848 From: infospy Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search If I point a Microphone (or one of the other toys you gentlemen play with) at your home or office from my home or office next door, and record anything I can. Is this legal? It's air space. Just wondering Howard Phillips N.E.W. Security Service Background and Insurance Investigations Serving North Eastern Wisconsin WI license 6165-063 902-559-1200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "MailExp" To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:16 AM Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > Canadian law is obviously different than US, although I don't know that > this has been successfully challenged in the US. Anyone? More facts > are arguably needed here for this discussion. Air space above a > property has no intellectual value; and does not belong to the property > owner. Therefore, use of it and the surrounding information that > results, should be fair game. If the ONLY basis for his conviction was > this, then I could see issues. However, it does not seem to be in this > case. Hopefully this was only the start of the constable's PC and it > progressed from there. We are missing part of the story. I am > surprised to see Canada having issue with this though. From a country > that grants applications for our Title III equivalent on an enormous > basis (over a thousand a day, yes that is correct) I see though only > thing coming from this is paperwork, with a standard approval. It seems > as though they want court involvement on everything, which in the end > only helps the LEA. > > I threw away my crystal ball a long time ago. > > Ed > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Paulsen [mailto:mpaulsen6@a...] > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:56 AM > To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > > > " > AND, since when is "the area > common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? Or > below.... > " > The crystal ball shows aquifers and sinkholes in your future. > > Another peanut in the gallery added... > > -----Original Message----- > From: MailExp [mailto:mailexp@o...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:43 PM > To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > > > Not advocating either, BUT - how is it an intrusion when you don't know, > feel or suffer the presence of an observation that you did not know was > taking place from 1000' above your head? AND, since when is "the area > common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? It > does not for any other right or law. It would be nicer to see someone > in a courtroom apply common sense and logic, instead of wasting time > making people file more papers just to do their job. > > Just another viewpoint from the peanut gallery... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mitch D [mailto:rockdriver@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:33 PM > To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > > > Not advocating an idiot growing pot plants but;Glad someone in a > courtroom still understands "Curtilage".......... > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 007140:HM/A=1414307/R=0/*https://www.clearcredit.com/registration/defaul > t.asp?n=b&cpID=c01888p1379&ckID=gen14628> > > pmail/S=:HM/A=1414307/rand=786786542> > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 007140:HM/A=1414307/R=0/*https://www.clearcredit.com/registration/defaul > t.asp?n=b&cpID=c01888p1379&ckID=gen14628> > > pmail/S=:HM/A=1414307/rand=235220143> > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 6849 From: Mitch D Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search --- infospy wrote: > If I point a Microphone (or one of the other toys you > gentlemen play with) > at your home or office from my home or office next door, and > record anything > I can. Is this legal? It's air space. > > Just wondering If you're in my neighborhood,you may consider reading this: Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-601 (1999): A person who is a party to a wire, oral or electronic communication, or who has obtained the consent of at least one party, can lawfully record a communication and divulge the contents of the recorded communication unless he has a criminal or tortious purpose for doing so. Violations are punishable as felonies with jail sentences of between two and 12 years and fines not exceeding $5,000. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-602, 40-35-111 (1999). Anyone whose communications have been unlawfully intercepted can sue to recover the greater of actual damages, $100 per day of violation or $10,000, along with punitive damages, attorney fees and litigation costs. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-603 (1999). Recording or disseminating a communication carried out through a cellular or cordless telephone, or disseminating the contents with knowledge of their illegal origin, without the consent of at least one party can be punished as a felony with a potential prison sentence of between one and six years and a fine not to exceed $3,000. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-604, 40-35-111 (1999). Viewing a person or using a hidden camera in a place where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, when the viewing or recording "would offend or embarrass an ordinary person," is a misdemeanor. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-605. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com 6850 From: Rick Hofmann - MICROSEARCH Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:25am Subject: Telecom question A lawyer called with the following scenario: The lawyer's client has been charged with placing annoying phone calls. The client claims he does not know the victim, and denies placing any calls to the victim's number. The PD has (or claims to have) evidence obtained from a telephone company trap that the client's number has been placing the offending calls. My questions is, can phone company traps be "spoofed"? I suppose it is also possible that a person could have clipped on to the client's line using a butt set at his TNI. I was curious about other explanations members of this list might conjure up. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Very truly yours, Rick Hofmann, CCO, CPP, PI16998 MICROSEARCH, LLC - Electronic Surveillance Detection - Counterespionage Post Office Box 2084 - Cypress, California 90630 714-952-3812 Fax: 714-209-0037 http://home.earthlink.net/~microsearch 6851 From: Michael Puchol Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search Thanks for that information Mitch, so... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch D" To: Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > Viewing a person or using a hidden camera in a place where there > is a reasonable expectation of privacy, when the viewing or > recording "would offend or embarrass an ordinary person," is a > misdemeanor. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-605. ...if I am home, in my bedroom, with the window blinds closed, and generating heat during normal marital activities, and someone flies over my house with a thermal camera and records the "action", wouldn't ALL of the above apply? I really don't see how this form of surveillance shouldn't be subjected to the same laws and regulations as wiretaps or conventional surveillance. In my own home I have an expectation of privacy, the recordings would definitely offend and emarrass me, so it is a blatant invasion of privacy. Period. If the Canadian agents had a probable cause, suspicion, tip, etc. they could have applied for surveillance authorisation, THEN flown over his house and recorded his plant-o-phile activities. On the other hand, it was quite an ingenious way to look for hydroponic plantations! Regards, Mike 6852 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:50pm Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search The federal courts have already ruled that if the person uses anything to assist their normal hearing then it is considered to be "assisted eavesdropping". The item being used could be a sophisticated eavesdropping device, a spy shop toy, a child's toy, or even an empty cup held against the wall. The rule of thumb is that if you can her it with the naked, un-assisted ear then it is fair game... but assist that hearing and it becomes eavesdropping. -jma At 8:21 AM -0600 1/31/03, infospy wrote: >If I point a Microphone (or one of the other toys you gentlemen play with) >at your home or office from my home or office next door, and record anything >I can. Is this legal? It's air space. > >Just wondering > > > > >Howard Phillips >N.E.W. Security Service >Background and Insurance Investigations >Serving North Eastern Wisconsin >WI license 6165-063 >902-559-1200 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "MailExp" >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:16 AM >Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > > >> Canadian law is obviously different than US, although I don't know that >> this has been successfully challenged in the US. Anyone? More facts >> are arguably needed here for this discussion. Air space above a >> property has no intellectual value; and does not belong to the property >> owner. Therefore, use of it and the surrounding information that >> results, should be fair game. If the ONLY basis for his conviction was >> this, then I could see issues. However, it does not seem to be in this >> case. Hopefully this was only the start of the constable's PC and it >> progressed from there. We are missing part of the story. I am >> surprised to see Canada having issue with this though. From a country >> that grants applications for our Title III equivalent on an enormous >> basis (over a thousand a day, yes that is correct) I see though only >> thing coming from this is paperwork, with a standard approval. It seems >> as though they want court involvement on everything, which in the end >> only helps the LEA. >> >> I threw away my crystal ball a long time ago. >> >> Ed >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Paulsen [mailto:mpaulsen6@a...] >> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:56 AM >> To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search >> >> >> " >> AND, since when is "the area >> common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? Or >> below.... >> " >> The crystal ball shows aquifers and sinkholes in your future. >> >> Another peanut in the gallery added... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: MailExp [mailto:mailexp@o...] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 6:43 PM >> To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search >> >> >> Not advocating either, BUT - how is it an intrusion when you don't know, >> feel or suffer the presence of an observation that you did not know was >> taking place from 1000' above your head? AND, since when is "the area >> common to or surrounding a house" consisting of the airspace above? It >> does not for any other right or law. It would be nicer to see someone >> in a courtroom apply common sense and logic, instead of wasting time >> making people file more papers just to do their job. >> >> Just another viewpoint from the peanut gallery... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mitch D [mailto:rockdriver@y...] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:33 PM >> To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search >> >> >> Not advocating an idiot growing pot plants but;Glad someone in a >> courtroom still understands "Curtilage".......... >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >> http://mailplus.yahoo.com >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> > 007140:HM/A=1414307/R=0/*https://www.clearcredit.com/registration/defaul >> t.asp?n=b&cpID=c01888p1379&ckID=gen14628> >> >> > pmail/S=:HM/A=1414307/rand=786786542> >> >> ======================================================== >> TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List >> "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" >> >> To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L >> >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, >> the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> =================================================== TSKS >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> . >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ======================================================== >> TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List >> "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" >> >> To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L >> >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, >> the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> =================================================== TSKS >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> > 007140:HM/A=1414307/R=0/*https://www.clearcredit.com/registration/defaul >> t.asp?n=b&cpID=c01888p1379&ckID=gen14628> >> >> > pmail/S=:HM/A=1414307/rand=235220143> >> >> ======================================================== >> TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List >> "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" >> >> To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L >> >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, >> the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> =================================================== TSKS >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> . >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ======================================================== >> TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List >> "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" >> >> To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L >> >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, >> the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. >> It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >> =================================================== TSKS >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> > > > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L > > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, > the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Ph: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6853 From: James M. Atkinson Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:00pm Subject: Re: Telecom question The lawyers client should plea bargain, and hope for mercy. Seriously though, The police or prosecutor is going to have to prove that it was THIS guy who made the call, and if he has done a good job of keep his mouth shut it will be almost for anyone to prove he did it. Of course if the police have an audio recording of this guy (from the harassing calls), or he had made previous threats, was sending harassing messages, and so on then the the guy is screwed. -jma At 9:25 AM -0800 1/31/03, Rick Hofmann - MICROSEARCH wrote: > A lawyer called with the following scenario: > > The lawyer's client has been charged with placing annoying phone >calls. The client claims he does not know the victim, and denies placing >any calls to the victim's number. The PD has (or claims to have) evidence >obtained from a telephone company trap that the client's number has been >placing the offending calls. > > My questions is, can phone company traps be "spoofed"? I suppose it is >also possible that a person could have clipped on to the client's line >using a butt set at his TNI. I was curious about other explanations >members of this list might conjure up. Thanks in advance for any ideas. > >Very truly yours, > >Rick Hofmann, CCO, CPP, PI16998 > >MICROSEARCH, LLC - Electronic Surveillance Detection - Counterespionage >Post Office Box 2084 - Cypress, California 90630 714-952-3812 Fax: >714-209-0037 >http://home.earthlink.net/~microsearch -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Bug Sweep, Spy Hunting, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- James M. Atkinson Ph: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island GroupFax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008mailto:jmatk@t... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6854 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:46pm Subject: Riser Bond TDR FS Hi all, If anyone needs a high end TDR, I recently got in a Riser Bond 1205T- OSP. I've now gone over it and it's perfect, ready to sell. This is a twisted pair TDR, and it will read two pairs at once, so you can see the difference between pairs and note any differences on one which may indicate a tap or anomaly. It has two inputs, two sets of leads, and displays two traces on the backlit LCD screen which can be superimposed. The unit is in near new condition, new battery, all accessories, manual, two sets of test leads, new canvas accessory carry pouch, and I even put a brand new yellow Pelican case with shoulder strap on it when I calibrated it. This TDR can be used on telephone lines, LAN wiring, or any metallic cable. It has digital storage and can internally store a number of waveforms to print later, or download to a computer when you generate your report for the client. No additional hardware is needed. It's all built in, simple memory storage button on the front panel. I even include the RS-232 computer interface cable. You can print in realtime or store TDR readings to print later, or download into a computer for storage or further analysis. The latest software is available for free download from www.riserbond.com. They update it periodically so I don't bother to include the software. Info on this TDR is there also, as well as tutorials on using it. The dual line capability, two traces at once to compare on the screen, is a superb benefit for TSCM work. In the past, I've had two separate TDRs on two lines to compare. This unit does it all in one. The 1205T-OSP is a current product. The -OSP suffix means OutSide Plant, meaning it is extra rugged for field use. The closed case is totally waterproof. It has one button testing, meaning you clip on the leads to the line under test, push one button, and the unit sets itself up automatically adjusting to the line parameters, and displays a usable waveform all within 10 seconds or so. You can merely jump from line to line using the automatic function, or override anything manually to disassemble the line electronically to whatever extent necessary. Automatic filters switch in to null out noise, 60 cycles or other garbage, and it's like magic. You can manually disable the filters if you wish to do so. Every function has a button. No complicated menus. Set velocity factor, cable impedance, pulse width and much more. A laminated cheat sheet is attached to the case with velocity factors of most common cables. The manual, which stores in the lid, goes into even more detail. Here's a super easy to use, versatile, powerful TDR for the most discriminating user. Current new price, never discounted, is $3195 in the 2002 catalog. The 2003 catalogs are not out yet, but the new price certainly will be higher. My price, as new, calibrated, all accessories, new battery, my warranty, is $2200. Save a thousand bucks. That's not chump change. I take credit cards and ship internationally. Overnight shipping available if need is immediate. If you are outside the U.S. and your mains power is 220VAC, please be sure to mention this when you order so I can include the proper charger. I've only had two others of this model, and both sold quickly. If you don't have a TDR, you're not able to sweep phone lines as effectively as you might. If you have an older one, a tired ragged out Tek or just want the latest greatest, here it is. Email if interested. Feel free to ask for references from me or the dozens on this list who have purchased TDRs from me before. Other Riser Bond TDRs are available also, including 1205CX, 1205CXA, 1270, all with new batteries, all accessories, calibrated, in excellent condition with my warranty. Some were used for only one week on a large install. They're at all different price levels starting at $500. Inquire for details if you'd like one different from the 1205T-OSP described above. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 6855 From: Mitch D Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:10pm Subject: Re: Court rejects infrared drug search --- Michael Puchol wrote: > Thanks for that information Mitch, so... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mitch D" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:53 PM > Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search > > > > > Viewing a person or using a hidden camera in a place where > there > > is a reasonable expectation of privacy, when the viewing or > > recording "would offend or embarrass an ordinary person," is > a > > misdemeanor. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-605. > > ...if I am home, in my bedroom, with the window blinds closed, > and > generating heat during normal marital activities, and someone > flies over my > house with a thermal camera and records the "action", wouldn't > ALL of the > above apply? I really don't see how this form of surveillance > shouldn't be > subjected to the same laws and regulations as wiretaps or > conventional > surveillance. In my own home I have an expectation of privacy, > the > recordings would definitely offend and emarrass me, so it is a > blatant > invasion of privacy. Period. If the Canadian agents had a > probable cause, > suspicion, tip, etc. they could have applied for surveillance > authorisation, > THEN flown over his house and recorded his plant-o-phile > activities. On the > other hand, it was quite an ingenious way to look for > hydroponic > plantations! > > Regards, > > Mike The hidden camera law was implemented to deter video recording that would be used for criminal/tortious,or perverted purposes( so I've been told by a local "low yer").Weather this applies to LEA's is another whole discussion,but I understand where youre coming from........ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com 6856 From: MailExp Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32pm Subject: RE: Court rejects infrared drug search Not the same issue at all. When you are speaking, especially in your own home, you have an inherent right to privacy. Especially in the confines of your own home. Heat waves that emanate beyond the walls should not be protected. In the same way, if you chose to have a conversation inside your home with the use of a loudspeaker, your expectation of privacy would be lost. Wonder no more. -----Original Message----- From: Mitch D [mailto:rockdriver@y...] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 11:53 AM To: tscm-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Court rejects infrared drug search --- infospy wrote: > If I point a Microphone (or one of the other toys you gentlemen play > with) at your home or office from my home or office next door, and > record anything > I can. Is this legal? It's air space. > > Just wondering If you're in my neighborhood,you may consider reading this: Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-601 (1999): A person who is a party to a wire, oral or electronic communication, or who has obtained the consent of at least one party, can lawfully record a communication and divulge the contents of the recorded communication unless he has a criminal or tortious purpose for doing so. Violations are punishable as felonies with jail sentences of between two and 12 years and fines not exceeding $5,000. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-602, 40-35-111 (1999). Anyone whose communications have been unlawfully intercepted can sue to recover the greater of actual damages, $100 per day of violation or $10,000, along with punitive damages, attorney fees and litigation costs. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-603 (1999). Recording or disseminating a communication carried out through a cellular or cordless telephone, or disseminating the contents with knowledge of their illegal origin, without the consent of at least one party can be punished as a felony with a potential prison sentence of between one and six years and a fine not to exceed $3,000. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-604, 40-35-111 (1999). Viewing a person or using a hidden camera in a place where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, when the viewing or recording "would offend or embarrass an ordinary person," is a misdemeanor. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-605. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 6857 From: Ocean Group Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Spare a moment... We should all spare a moment to share in the grief of the lost souls on the NASA shuttle Columbia and their families as well as their friends and team mates in mission control. The shuttle never made it through re-entry and all contact was lost. May the lord have mercy on their souls. 6858 From: Hawkspirit Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:09am Subject: tscming a lan What I think we are talking about here is not the cable on the customers premises under the customers control. We are talking about the part of the networks traveling through out the city. Typical of a t1 span between the customer and the telephone central office which could be over five miles. Roger From: "Hugo Drax" Subject: Re: tscming a lan If your customer has sensitive data it should sit behind a secured isolated server in a tamper-resistant cabinet include tamper evidence seals with a firewall protecting the device, IDS/logging system residing in the cabinet for alerting and only permit timed access to the server via VPN with SecureID tokens(fobs). Physical security is a must. 6859 From: Hawkspirit Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:18am Subject: tscming a lan TDR's are really limited in resolution if data is on the span that you are testing so shutting down the data is a must. No other machine will give you the detail or comparative information that a TDR will on cable splits and bridges. This is why we work a lot at night and on weekends. On the optical cables use an optical TDR. Use BERT's and loop back tests to locate repeaters and routers and physically inspect them for attacks on their monitoring ports. Roger From: "Matt Paulsen" Subject: RE: tscming a lan Hi Roger, Thanks for the information. Most of what you're discussing looks wan based voice/data - t1's, ds0's, opx's, etc. If we're still back to using a TDR (dry not wet, correct?), why should I bother with the other equipment I have? Does it provide any value to TSCM a lan in the context as I've laid it out? If you're saying that we have to break the lan to test, that's not very easy to do in a life systems level network where if you break the lan you endanger lives and set off physical security systems and impact engineering systems - chillers, electrical, etc. Or do I place that under this is a ISO issue, talk to the CEO if you've got an issue with it. Second, I'm still trying to understand how a TDR fits into the larger context of a fiber rich network with single & multimode cable all over the place. Third, I'm looking for surreptitious testing before breaking the lan. RE: CSU/DSU's, I've done from network loop back, 0x's, 1's, etc., as well as from the CO down to the CSU. Mostly I get 'it's all ok' from my testing. I tend to find that the telco's are braindead for the most part unless you get a senior engineer involved that realizes that there's this thing called a switch, and it runs on this other thing called software at their end. 6860 From: Hawkspirit Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:28am Subject: tscming a lan Try this book "T1 A Survival Guide" by Matthew Gast O'Reilly is the publisher. Roger From: "Matt Paulsen" Subject: RE: tscming a lan Hi Hugo, Thanks for the input. Most of what you've laid out is already done. If the questions I've asked require a book to answer, I'll buy it. Any suggestions? Thanks, Matt 6861 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:07am Subject: File - Gold List The current version of this list may be found at: http://www.tscm.com/goldlist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Recommended U.S. TSCM Firms The following is a list of private TSCM firms who specialize in "bug sweeps" and wiretap detection and all of whom have legitimate TSCM training, credentials, and equipment (all are very well respected within the industry). While most TSCM specialists are available for travel outside of a specific geographic area they tend to avoid such engagements, or will limited the services to vulnerability analysis, pre-construction assistance, non-instrumented inspections, simple RF checks, in-place monitoring, or limited TSCM services involving only a briefcase sized in-place monitoring system (such as a single spectrum analyzer, MSS, Eagle, ScanLock, OSCOR, SPECTRE, ROSE, or similar system). These private TSCM firms tend to operate in a specific geographic area limited to a few hundred miles (usually within a four to six hour automobile drive). However, all of the TSCM firms listed here are available for travel anywhere in the United States or the World on short notice, but only provide limited services when operating outside of their normal coverage area. This limited coverage area is due to the logistics involved in transporting hundreds and often thousands of pounds of sophisticated, highly sensitive electronic instruments, equipment and tools. Bug sweeps and wiretap detection involves the use of ladders, pole climbing equipment, LAN analyzers, X-ray systems, large antennas and other equipment which is not easily transported by airplane. TSCM firms also tend to restrict their operations to a specific geographic area to facilitate an expert level of knowledge regarding the RF environment, construction methods used, community zoning, population demographics, civil engineering, aeronautic or maritime facilities, local military bases, and related areas. Knowledge of such regional information is critical for a successful TSCM project. The TSCM specialist must also have an intimate knowledge of the telephone systems, engineering methods, fiber optics, major cable locations, central office switches, test numbers, and related communications infrastructure present or being used in an area (which tends to be very regional). An understanding of what types of eavesdropping devices, methods, and frequencies are being used in an area is also important, as is a knowledge of what type of surveillance equipment is being sold within that region (and other areas). The TSCM Procedural and Protocols Guides used by a specialist also tend to be based on specific issues and variables present in that specific geographic area. On a more interesting note, many of these firms are located in, or near major maritime port cities. The heaviest concentrations are around major cities on the East and West coasts with a very limited presence in the Mid-West, Great Plains, and Rockies. If you are in the Mid-West, Great Plains, or Rockies area you would need to engage a TSCM firm from one of the major port cities. For example customers in Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis, Denver, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Billings, etc. would need to fly a TSCM specialist in from Boston, New York, Washington DC, Los Angles, Lexington, or Seattle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please be patient when contacting these firms, as if they are out serving a client they may not be able to return your call for several hours. Rates generally are non-negotiable and reflect the cost of the sweep practitioner's time, investment in equipment acquisition and maintenance, several weeks of in-service training a year, travel, administrative and communications time and expense to coordinate the sweep and written report, and a fair profit for their services. It is very unwise to shop for sweeps by using price as a criteria as it only invites getting ripped off. Legitimate TSCM professionals are not interested in, nor will then engage in negotiating for a lower price. When you contact persons on this list, you are talking with someone in the same league as an attorney or surgeon, not a salesman. In fact most of the people listed on this page have more time in their specialized training than do most attorneys or medical professionals. Anything beyond an initial phone call usually will be billable time. Attorneys and doctors don't consult for free, and neither do legitimate TSCM specialists. If a potential client calls with a long list of questions not pertaining directly to hiring the practitioner, or wants to know how to do his own sweep, or wants to know how to use the sweep kit he purchased on his own, expect to pay an hourly rate in advance for consulting services. If you are considering engaging (or have already engaged) a TSCM firm and they are not listed in the following directory you would do well to immediately ask some awkward questions. It is also important you understand that legitimate services by a competent TSCM firm rarely start at less then several thousand dollars for even a basic sweep. Keep in mind that there only a small number of legitimate and competent TSCM counterintelligence specialists or "Bug Sweepers" in the U.S. private sector. Legitimate TSCM firms are in very high demand, hard to find, and expensive; so be patient when trying to find one to help you. Also, the firms listed on this page are not attorneys and cannot tell you whether it is legal or illegal for you to monitor your own phones. Always call a competent licensed attorney for legal advice. Without exception, no one listed here performs eavesdropping services or sells surveillance equipment to any other than government agencies AND WILL NOT REFER YOU TO ANYONE WHO DOES. When you contact any of the following firms please mention that you saw them listed on this web site. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All of New England, Upstate New York, and the Boston Metropolitan Area (MA, RI, CT, VT, NH, ME, New York State including Long Island, and some of New Jersey) Available on a limited basis to cover any location within 1000 miles of Boston. James M. Atkinson Granite Island Group 127 Eastern Avenue #291 Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 (978) 546-3803 Telephone URL: http://www.tscm.com/ E-mail: jmatk@t... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stamford, Connecticut Metropolitan Area (also, Manhattan, Long Island, and New Jersey) Sam Daskam Information Security Associates, Inc. 38 Settlers Trail Stamford, CT 06903 (203) 329-8387 Telephone URL: http://www.isa-tscm.com/ E-mail:sales@i... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Norwalk, and Lower Fairfield Country Area (also, Manhattan, Long Island, Philadelphia, and New Jersey) Rob Muessel TSCM Technical Services 11 Bayberry Lane Norwalk, CT 06851 (203) 354-9040 Telephone URL: http://www.tscmtech.com/ E-mail:rmuessel@t... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greater Philadelphia and Harrisburg Metropolitan Area (also, serving South-Eastern and Central Pennsylvania) Bob Motzer RCM and Associates 609 Sandra Lane Phoenixville, PA 19460 (888) 990-6265 Telephone E-mail: 1RCM@M... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington DC and Baltimore Metropolitan Area (also, Virginia, Delaware, and Pennsylvania) Steve Uhrig SWS Security 1300 Boyd Road Street, MD 21154-1836 (410) 879-4035 Telephone URL: http://www.swssec.com/ E-mail: steve@s... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Houston, Dallas, Austin, and Galveston (also, Gulf Coast of Texas and Louisiana) Rick Udovich Communication Security, Inc. 2 Shadow Lane Bay City, TX 77414 (979) 244-4920 Telephone URL: http://www.bugsweep.com/ E-mail: rjudo@s... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atlanta Metropolitan Area, Southeastern US (also, AL, FL, GA, NC, SC, TN) Buzz Benson Executive World Services, Inc. P.O. Box 33 Braselton, Georgia 30517-0033 (678) 316-7002 Telephone URL: http://www.executiveworldservices.com/ E-mail: sales@e... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lexington KY Metropolitan Area (also, Louisville, Cincinnati, and Central Midwest) Bill G. Rhoads Intelcom, Inc. 121 Prosperous Place, Suite 4B Lexington, KY 40509 (859) 263-9425 Telephone E-mail: bgr101@a... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Michigan and Surrounding Area (also, Indiana, Ohio, and Northern Midwest Region) Chad Margita Off Duty Security 18301 Eight Mile Rd, Suite 214 Eastpointe, MI 48021 (586) 774-1675 Telephone E-mail: offdutysecurity@c... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Washington State and Seattle WA Metropolitan Area (also, Oregon, and the Pacific North West) Gordon Mitchell Future Focus, Inc. P.O. Box 2547 Woodinville, WA 98072 (888) BUG-KILR Telephone URL: http://www.bug-killer.com/ E-mail: enquiries@b... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ San Francisco and all of Northern California (also, Silicon Valley Area) William Bennett Walsingham Associates, Inc. P.O. Box 4264 San Rafael, CA 94913 (415) 492-1594 Telephone E-mail: walsingham@c... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6862 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:07am Subject: File - mission.txt TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List Dedicated to TSCM specialists engaging in expert technical and analytical research for the detection, nullification, and isolation of eavesdropping devices, wiretaps, bugging devices, technical surveillance penetrations, technical surveillance hazards, and physical security weaknesses. This also includes bug detection, bug sweep, and wiretap detection services. Special emphasis is given to detecting and countering espionage and other threats and activities directed by foreign intelligence services against the United States Government, United States corporations, establishments, and citizens. The list includes technical discussion regarding the design and construction of SCIF facilities, Black Chambers, and Screen Rooms. This list is also for discussing DIAM 50-3, NSA-65, and DCID 1/21, 1/22 compliance. The primary goal and mission of this list is to "raise the bar" and increase the level of professionalism present within the TSCM business. The secondary goal of this list is to increase the quality and effectiveness of our efforts so that we give spies and eavesdroppers no quarter, and to neutralize all of their espionage efforts. This mailing list is moderated by James M. Atkinson and sponsored by Granite Island Group as a public service to the TSCM, Counter Intelligence, and technical security community. 6863 From: Fernando Martins Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 11:26am Subject: irc question ... I wonder if there is any known irc channels@network about tscm or electronic security (like about cctv, access control, ...)? FM 6864 From: Gregory Horton Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 0:02am Subject: Stop telemarketers Received this e-mail from a pal. Is this on the up and up? Subject: No Telemarket K. Alan Carlton, Professional Home & Building Inspection Consultant, Fort Worth, Texas 817 572-3300 Amateur Radio Operator N5GKY YES, YOU CAN STOP TELEMARKETERS ' annoying calls, or at least slow them down: Those 3 familiar tones courtesy of Ma-Bell will do the trick. Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal. Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, "Hello". What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your "HELLO", followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) " Hello, this is Alan Carlton", then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, "doo...dah...dee", thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, "doo...dah...dee". The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, "doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Alan Carlton". It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 6865 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 10:45am Subject: Very interesting US Army weapons procurement http://acquisition.army.mil/svs/output/DABJ3503T0056.html Items they are buying are all the way at the bottom. The rest is boilerplate. Quantity 13. Have we come full circle? Tom Clancy's comment: " The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense. " Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 6866 From: Fernando Martins Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:05am Subject: cctv Any good or bad experiences with Philips cctv/observation equipment/systems? http://www.philipscsi.com/ FM 6867 From: Romeo Mabasa Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 4:09am Subject: TSCM strategy, evaluation & contrtol Hi guys, We're currently developing the above mentioned things and need your input. We were given a budget and we need ways to improve on it. So nay help will be appreciated. -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup 6868 From: Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 8:56am Subject: Re: Stop telemarketers The main thing I see that is wrong with those tones is that our DTMF tones are two frequencies per tone, not one (thus Dual Tone Multi-Frequency designation). Do you know the second tone for the three tones you mentioned? Sgt. Kirk Sewell Illinois State Police, Technical Investigations 500 Iles Park Place, Suite 300 Springfield, IL 62718 (217)524-6079 6869 From: Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:35am Subject: Stop telemarketers Yes, this seems to work. The idea is fresh from the last issue of 2600 magazine... (Embedded image moved to file: pic06729.pcx) ----- Forwarded by Cory Bys/First Bank on 02/03/2003 09:29 AM ----- |---------+----------------------------> | | Gregory Horton | | | | | | | | | 02/03/2003 12:02 | | | AM | | | | |---------+----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com | | cc: | | Subject: [TSCM-L] Stop telemarketers | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Received this e-mail from a pal. Is this on the up and up? Subject: No Telemarket K. Alan Carlton, Professional Home & Building Inspection Consultant, Fort Worth, Texas 817 572-3300 Amateur Radio Operator N5GKY YES, YOU CAN STOP TELEMARKETERS ' annoying calls, or at least slow them down: Those 3 familiar tones courtesy of Ma-Bell will do the trick. Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal. Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, "Hello". What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your "HELLO", followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) " Hello, this is Alan Carlton", then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, "doo...dah...dee", thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, "doo...dah...dee". The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, "doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Alan Carlton". It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ======================================================== TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/TSCM-L It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Star Bucks that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking is a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. =================================================== TSKS Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ********************************** N O T E ***************************************** All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received or otherwise recorded by the First Banks corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. *********************************************************************************************** ********************************** N O T E ***************************************** All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received or otherwise recorded by the First Banks corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. *********************************************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 6870 From: T. Beachler Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 2:22pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 1181 I'd like a follow up on this as well. TSCM-L@yahoogroups.------------------------------------------------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:02:57 -0800 From: Gregory Horton Subject: Stop telemarketers Received this e-mail from a pal. Is this on the up and up? Subject: No Telemarket K. Alan Carlton, Professional Home & Building Inspection Consultant, Fort Worth, Texas 817 572-3300 Amateur Radio Operator N5GKY YES, YOU CAN STOP TELEMARKETERS ' annoying calls, or at least slow them down: Those 3 familiar tones courtesy of Ma-Bell will do the trick. Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal. Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, "Hello". What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your "HELLO", followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) " Hello, this is Alan Carlton", then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, "doo...dah...dee", thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, "doo...dah...dee". The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, "doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Alan Carlton". It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 6871 From: Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Forensics Used to Rate bin Laden Tape Forensics Used to Rate bin Laden Tape by Steve Harvey (Jan. 20, 2003) -- A recorded message purportedly made by Osama bin Laden that aired on Arab satellite television network Al-Jazeera in mid-November brought the field of audio forensics to the fore as investigators scrambled to verify that the world's most wanted terrorist was still alive. If genuine, the recording, in which the speaker specifically refers to recent events such as the Oct. 12 Bali bombing, would be the first concrete evidence that the al Qaeda leader survived the U.S.-led bombing of Afghanistan. Renowned forensic consultant Tom Owen of Owl Investigations was contacted by a number of news organizations for his opinion regarding the veracity of the Nov. 12 tape. Owen, who formerly worked at New York's Lincoln Center Archives as chief engineer for 11 years, currently serves as chairman of the AES Standards Group WG-12 on Forensic Audio and is the chairman of the American Board of Recorded Evidence. He maintains a fully equipped laboratory that offers analog and digital audio-video signal processing and voice identification at his New Jersey facility. The CIA and National Security Agency were quick to verify that the new tape was genuine. But a statement from a Swiss laboratory at the end of November suggesting that the speaker was an imposter-though the tests were inconclusive due to insufficient data, lab officials said-demonstrated the difficulties involved with voice identification. The process of verification is relatively simple, Owen explains. "Basically, it's a comparison analysis between a known and an unknown." But the problem with a figure such as bin Laden, of course, lies with the reliability of the "known" samples. The ideal "known" source is verbatim exemplars, states Owen. According to the 1998 standard laid down by the American Board of Recorded Evidence, verbatim exemplars should consist of prepared statements recorded by the subject under controlled circumstances. "Which is never going to happen," says Owen of bin Laden. There are only a few top certified voice analysts in the country, according to Owen, including such well-known independent consultants as Anthony Pellicano and former FBI experts Bruce Koenig and Steve Cain. "What differentiates me from the others," says Owen, "is that I used the only person-to-person interview that [bin Laden] has done, which was in 1998 with John Miller from ABC-TV. You see him on camera, so you know that's him, and you know that's him talking." As luck would have it, when the new recording arrived, Owen was in the middle of voice-identification training with three Saudi intelligence agents who were able to isolate words common to the known and unknown recordings. "They translated everything for me. We had five or six words, such as allah, and we looked at those. The unknown message had already been translated by the State Department, but they were taking some liberties with the translation, at least in the opinion of the Arabic-speaking people." Owen continues, "Most males speak at a pitch of about 130 Hz, fundamental frequency, so you're looking for a pitch analysis that's going to be somewhat reliable. On the interview with Miller, it's fairly reliable because it's network-quality audio. On the new message, there's a lot of noise-it has a 5 kHz radio band. Even when you try to clean it up, there are still problems. They probably did that on purpose." One simple verification method, Owen says, is to "make a short-term memory tape of the unknown/known, back and forth. You try to use phrases that have a similar breath pattern and a similar rate of speech." Of the new bin Laden tape, he opines, "When you look at the rate of speech, mannerisms-if you look for dialects and accents, that doesn't change. The syllable coupling-I don't detect any pathology like a cleft palate or a physical problem." More sophisticated analysis is performed with either an aural spectrogram machine or biometric algorithms, which the Swiss used. "The problem with biometrics is that it assumes perfect samples. That's its biggest downfall, because the voice is dynamic." Owen instead relies on analog Voice Identification and digital Kay Elemetrics sound spectrographs. But while the pixelization of the screen limits the efficacy of the digital system, he observes, on the analog printouts "the resolution in terms of the formants of the voice-meaning the time, energy and frequency of the voice-is very clear." Of the latest tape comparison, Owen concludes, "When you look at the visual cues on the spectrogram, either on the computer or the analog machine, you see the same distribution, the same transition between the consonants and the vowels, the trajectory of the formants on the same words. They matched very well. My opinion was that it was probably [bin Laden], but not positive." www.medialinenews.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 6872 From: John M Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 10:44pm Subject: Stop telemarketers I've had these tones on the lead-in of my answering machine greeting for the last year or so. Hard to say absolutely how much of an effect it's had, since I don't have any before/after study or census of unsolicited sales calls. My rough feeling though is that it may have reduced the number of telemarketing calls a fair amount. Doesn't completely eliminate them, but it seems to help. You can download the tones from here: http://www.sandman.com/sounds/sit.wav Or just do a Google search for "SIT" or "special information tone". Doing this yourself is a heck of alot cheaper then forking out $45 for a Telezapper too. -------- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:02:57 -0800 From: Gregory Horton Subject: Stop telemarketers Received this e-mail from a pal. Is this on the up and up? Subject: No Telemarket K. Alan Carlton, Professional Home & Building Inspection Consultant, Fort Worth, Texas 817 572-3300 Amateur Radio Operator N5GKY YES, YOU CAN STOP TELEMARKETERS ' annoying calls, or at least slow them down: Those 3 familiar tones courtesy of Ma-Bell will do the trick. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com