From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:43am Subject: Defector Confirms Chinese Army Spying on U.S. Defector Confirms Chinese Army Spying on U.S. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/26/195051.shtml Charles R. Smith Tuesday, March 27, 2001 Armed with information from a high-ranking defector, President Bush is reported to be on the verge of shutting down Chinese military espionage in America. The defector, identified by the BBC as Lt. Col. Xu Junping, is said to be singing like a bird about Chinese army intelligence operations inside the United States. According to Taiwanese news sources, Xu is a senior colonel in charge of North American affairs for the People's Liberation Army General Staff Department. Xu's reported expertise is arms control and U.S. military-to-military contacts. Xu's information on Chinese army spy operation has led several high-ranking members of the Bush administration to press for the suspension of major military-to-military contacts with Beijing. Under the proposed ban, Chinese military officials will no longer be allowed the exclusive access to sensitive U.S. facilities that they previously enjoyed under the Clinton administration, which considered China a "strategic partner" in Asian military affairs. Although not as dramatic as the expulsion of dozens of Russian spies, the move will cripple People's Liberation Army intelligence operations inside America. The Bush-led effort is expected to allow high-level Chinese army officers to attend only official military functions. Why Did Clinton Abet Chinese Spying on U.S.? The information obtained from Xu has led U.S. intelligence officials to question the previous free access given to Chinese army officers during the 1990s. The Clinton strategic partnership with the People's Liberation Army included military training, computers, encrypted communications equipment, satellites and exclusive access to U.S. military facilities inside America. Xu confirmed that Chinese army intelligence officers frequently abused civilian programs to mask their military and economic espionage. According to documents previously obtained from the U.S. government using the Freedom of Information Act, China abused a civil air traffic control program to obtain important military information such as "Combat Readiness." The documents also show that the Chinese attempted to conceal the military background of the representatives. For example, in 1993 a Chinese military delegation visited America under the Federal Aviation Administration civil exchange program using civilian titles. One FAA official noted that many of the Chinese delegation actually held rank in the People's Liberation Army. The anonymous FAA official who attending the meeting wrote "military" next to the names of seven members of the 1993 "China Air Traffic Control" delegation in an apparent effort to track the Chinese army officers. The 1993 FAA delegation list included "Mr. Kui Fulin," who toured Federal Aviation Administration headquarters in Washington, Andrews AFB in Maryland, and Boeing Corp. in Washington state. Mr. Kui Fulin was actually Gen. Kui Fulin, Chinese army deputy chief of the general staff. Fulin is known as the man who planned the brutal 1989 army attack on unarmed student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square. The Chinese army access to the America continued throughout the Clinton years under the so-called Federal Aviation Administration civilian air program with exclusive tours backed by U.S. industry giants such as United Airlines and Lockheed Martin. In May 1999 Chinese air force and navy officers visited Edwards Air Force Base for the Federal Aviation Administration civil program under a tour sponsored by Lockheed Martin. Edwards AFB is a test center for American military and NASA research aircraft, including the F-22, Joint Strike Fighter and space shuttle. U.S. Air Force documents show that Sr. Col. Li Zhongli, Sr. Col. Wang Changzheng and Maj. Wang Shouxing gained entry to Edwards Air Force Base. The documents noted that the Chinese officers were given detailed information on military operations at Edwards AFB. The Chinese air force officers were also given details on U.S. Air Force "Special Airspace" areas inside America that are used for military training, research and national security zones. The Chinese military officers were given the latest information on advanced "mobile radars," command and control systems, GPS navigation and "Surveillance Avionics" such as "Air to Air," "Air to Ground" and "Surface Area Movement" surveillance radars. Chinese military officers were also given training on U.S. Air Force combat missions, including "bombing and strafing" and "combat readiness." The U.S. Air Force documents show Chinese Air Force officers were given a "simulated" F-16 training mission under the FAA civil program. The training included a "two ship formation of F-16s from Luke AFB, Arizona" on a "bombing" and overflight mission in a training area, code-named "Baghdad," northwest of Prescott, Ariz. The simulated exercise also included "in-flight refueling" with a tanker aircraft under control of a U.S. Air Force AWACs plane. Defense and State Department officials, backed by the espionage details provided by Xu, have reportedly recommended the new freeze in military exchanges amid heightened security concerns. The new concern in Washington is reflected in the recent decision by President Bush to order air strikes against a Chinese-built air defense system outside Baghdad. The U.S. and U.K. air attacks were timed to strike when Chinese engineers were not working on the Iraqi fiber-optic command network, NATO code-named "Tiger Song." In the following war of words, Secretary of State Colin Powell reported conservations with Beijing clearly noted the U.N. embargo on weapons for Baghdad is still in effect. Powell stated that the public and private protests over Beijing's illegal supply of weaponry to Iraq would continue. -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2823 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 0:36pm Subject: Good telco tutorial Will be of most benefit to novices, but is a good cram course in telephone networking. http://www.utdallas.edu/~jbayer/lecture4.PDF Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 2824 From: Shawn Hughes Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:21am Subject: rf from a coke bottle and you thought the EM spectrum was crowded already.......... http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/mar01/schmidt.asp 2825 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:57am Subject: HOW DO THESE PEOPLE SURVIVE HOW DO THESE PEOPLE SURVIVE Recently, when I went to McDonald's I saw on the menu that you could have an order of 6, 9 or 12 Chicken McNuggets. I asked for a half dozen nuggets. "We don't have half dozen nuggets", said the teenager at the counter. "You don't?" I replied. "We only have six, nine, or twelve," was the reply. "So I can't order a half-dozen nuggets, but I can order six?" "That's right." So I shook my head and ordered six McNuggets. -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2826 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:01am Subject: Out of Paper Several years ago, we had a new West Point graduate who was none too swift. One day he was typing and turned to a Sergeant and said, "I'm almost out of typing paper, What do I do?" "Just use copier machine paper," the Sergeant told him. With that, the West Point graduate took the last remaining blank piece of paper, put it on the photocopier and proceeded to make five "blank" copies. -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2827 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:03am Subject: Kids say the darndest things! Kids say the darndest things! "BABY FAT?" When I was six months pregnant with my third child, my three year old came into the room when I was just getting ready to get into the shower. She said, "Mommy, you are getting fat!" I replied, "Yes honey, remember Mommy has a baby growing in her tummy." "I know," she replied, "but what is growing in your butt?" "A WISE LITTLE GIRL" A certain little girl, when asked her name, would reply, "I'm Mr. Sugarbrown's daughter." Her mother told her this was wrong, she must say,"I'm Jane Sugarbrown." The Vicar spoke to her in Sunday School and said, "Aren't you Mr. Sugarbrown's daughter?" She replied, "I thought I was, but mother says I'm not." "TOO ROUGH" A little girl asked her mother, "Can I go outside and play with the boys?" Her mother replied, "No, you can't play with the boys, they're too rough. The little girl thought about it for a few moments, and asked, "If I can find a smooth one, can I play with him?" "THUMB SUCKING" A boy had reached four without giving up the habit of sucking his thumb, though his mother had tried everything from bribery, to reasoning to painting it with lemon juice to discourage the habit. Finally she tried threats, warning her son that, "If you don't stop sucking your thumb, your stomach is going to blow up like a balloon. " Later that day, walking in the park, mother and son saw a pregnant woman sitting on a bench. The Four year old considered her gravely for a minute, then spoke to her saying, "Uhoh .. I know what you've been doing." -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2828 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:03am Subject: Billable Time A doctor and a lawyer were talking at a party. Their conversation was constantly interrupted by people describing their ailments and asking the doctor for free medical advice. After an hour of this, the exasperated doctor asked the lawyer, "What do you do to stop people from asking you for legal advice when you're out of the office?" "I give it to them," replied the lawyer, "and then I send them a bill." The doctor was shocked, but agreed to give it a try. The next day, still feeling slightly guilty, the doctor prepared the bills. When he went to place them in his mailbox, he found a bill from the lawyer. -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2829 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 0:52pm Subject: The Price Of Getting Old The Price Of Getting Old For the first time in many years, a an old man traveled from his rural town to the city to attend a movie. After buying his ticket, he stopped at the concession stand to purchase some popcorn. Handing the attendant his money, he couldn't help but comment, "The last time I came to the movies, popcorn was only 15 cents." "Well, sir," the attendant replied with a grin, "You're really going to enjoy yourself. We have sound now." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "How was your golf game, dear?" asked Jack's wife Tracy. "Well, I was hitting pretty well, but my eyesight's gotten so bad, I couldn't see where the ball went." "You're seventy-five years old, Jack!" admonished his wife. "Why don't you take my brother Scott along?" "But he's eighty-five and doesn't even play golf anymore," protested Jack. "Yes, but he's got perfect eyesight and can watch your ball for you," Tracy pointed out. The next day Jack teed off with Scott looking on. Jack swung and the ball disappeared down the middle of the fairway. "Did you see where it went?" asked Jack. "Yup," Scott answered. "Well, where is it?" yelled Jack, peering off into the distance. "I forgot." -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2830 From: Lisa Tyree Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 2:27pm Subject: I don't mean to be rude, but netiqette dictates we stick to the subject. None of the recent posts I've read have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with counter-intelligence, which is obviously to enlightened citizens like me & (I would think) others here, VERY IMPORTANT. I'm sure there might be others that feel the same way. There are places on the 'net for everything, including this small talk. Just find it. Thank you for reading this! :-)) 2831 From: Craig Meldrum Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:52pm Subject: TSCM in Hong Kong This is my first posting to this group although I have been monitoring it for a couple of weeks. I am interetsde in hearing from anybody who has had experience in carrying out an international TSCM job in Hong Kong. I would appreciate a direct contact via email to craig@s... Thanks Craig 2832 From: Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:46am Subject: (no subject) 2833 From: Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 7:41am Subject: Re: Digest Number 554...Lisa LIGHTEN UP LISA! YES, WE ALL READ WITH PASSION ITEMS CONCERNING OUR CHOSEN PROFESSION...SOMETIMES IT IS NICE TO HAVE A LITTLE HUMOR BESTOWED UPON US. THE EVERYDAY INFO SENT ALONG BY "JMA," et. al. IS PRICELESS INDEED, HAVE A CHUCKLE AND GET ON WITH IT. SCHOOL WAS OUT FOR ONE DAY!!! REGARDS, JOHN R. DILLON tdifinc@c... 2834 From: Nacht Gotterdammerung Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 8:37am Subject: Re: Digest Number 554 -Netiquette- New word for me. I figure since this list is the sole property and brainchild of Mr. Atkinson, if he has an issue with the content, he will speak up. Besides which, I think alot of the recent humor posts (to which I assume you are refering) have been posted by Mr. Atkinson. Also, the heading of this list is not counter-intelligence, although counter-intelligence is indeed a discipline of T.S.C.M., the heading is Technical Surveilance Counter Measures. Godspeed. --- TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > wrote: > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... >=================================================== TSKS >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >There is 1 message in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > > 1. I don't mean to be rude, but netiqette dictates we stick to the subject. > From: "Lisa Tyree" > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 19:27:47 -0000 > From: "Lisa Tyree" >Subject: I don't mean to be rude, but netiqette dictates we stick to the subject. > >None of the recent posts I've read have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do >with counter-intelligence, which is obviously to enlightened citizens >like me & (I would think) others here, VERY IMPORTANT. >I'm sure there might be others that feel the same way. >There are places on the 'net for everything, including this small >talk. Just find it. >Thank you for reading this! :-)) > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ == Those that travel long distances in isolation will defend themselves with strange arts. Shin shin, shin gan. The data contained herein is confidential. Unauthorised dissemination of the contents of this e-mail may be in breach of Criminal and Civil law and may lead to prosecution. _____________________________________________________________ Yourname@i...
When you want them to remember!
http://burn.inhell.com 2835 From: Robert G. Ferrell Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:13pm Subject: Re: I don't mean to be rude >None of the recent posts I've read have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do >with counter-intelligence, which is obviously to enlightened citizens >like me & (I would think) others here, VERY IMPORTANT. The owner of this list feels that the occasional humorous post is well within the scope of TSCM. I happen to agree, inasmuch as humor is a vital element in maintaining perspective and balance against the sometimes painfully technical nature of TSCM. Humor is a tool of the intellect, and an appreciation of irony is a signpost of intellectual maturity. There will be plenty of technobabble in this august forum in the future--enough to satisfy even the most hardcore TSCM aficionado. For now, though, try to appreciate the intent, if not the actual product, of JMA's policy. You can always hit the delete key. Put another way, stop and smell the roses. Cheers, RGF Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP ======================================== Who goeth without humor goeth unarmed. ======================================== 2836 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 1:07pm Subject: List Policy and Guidelines Thanks RGF, As the list moderator let me say a few things here, TSCM and technical security as some pretty serious stuff, stressful as all dickens, and so on. We work long hours under less then favorable conditions. It's up at 4 am, drive 90 minutes to a client site, spend an hour unloading 2 tons of lab gear on site, and spend the next 16 hours using equipment to climb around every nook and cranny of the clients location where you may or may not find a bug. Then repack and reload the 2 tons of equipment back on the truck, and drive back to the office, type up the report so you can get it to them in the morning, and it your lucky sneak in 3-4 hours of sleep before getting to to repeat to whole thing the next morning. Of course during this whole thing you back will spasm up on you while unloading the truck, the clients employees will try to steal you laptop, the CEO of the company turns into Charles Manson, the PI who brought you in plants a device to be found, the head of security wants you to tap some phones, the accounting department still hasn't aid for the last sweep, and the bloody power just went out knocking out your laptop. CEO's that WANT a sweep just to make themselves feel important, attorneys who only want to pay you if you find something, anti-government types ranting about black helicopters, delusionary mental patients, and so on. On top of this add: bleeding edge instruments that are finicky, rot gut coffee, no lunch (not counting the two stale donuts), people with attitudes, mental patients calling six times a day, never enough power cords, fogged up Xray film, NLJD getting false hits, phones that aren't wired right, firewalls with default password, locks that never work the right way, and everybody either trying to get you to work for free or telling you that "it's not their responsibility or jurisdiction". For a real bonus add some big corporate client who just bought a broadband diode detector system from some New York Spyshop for a quarter million dollars and has convinced himself that his office is riddled with bugs (but who gets pissed at you for telling him that his equipment is of minimal value, and that his office is free of bugs). That said, it is healthy to pass around some bits of humor on a regular basis as those of us to perform several hard core sweeps a week need to vent off out steam. Most of the people on this list can relate to what I am talking about, and I would encourage anybody who has a problem with that policy o unsubscribe. As list moderator I have always encouraged list member to swap humor on a regular basis and to vent a little steam (but please play nice). PS: On a side note I would point out that THIS list is the largest of it kind anywhere in the world, and that a large percentage of the membership consists of both government and corporate hard-core TSCM people. So speaks the moderator (who now shuts up), -jma At 12:13 PM -0500 4/2/01, Robert G. Ferrell wrote: > >None of the recent posts I've read have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do >>with counter-intelligence, which is obviously to enlightened citizens >>like me & (I would think) others here, VERY IMPORTANT. > >The owner of this list feels that the occasional humorous post is >well within the scope of TSCM. I happen to agree, inasmuch as humor >is a vital element in maintaining perspective and balance against >the sometimes painfully technical nature of TSCM. Humor is a tool >of the intellect, and an appreciation of irony is a signpost of >intellectual maturity. > >There will be plenty of technobabble in this august forum in the >future--enough to satisfy even the most hardcore TSCM aficionado. >For now, though, try to appreciate the intent, if not the actual >product, of JMA's policy. You can always hit the delete key. > >Put another way, stop and smell the roses. > >Cheers, > >RGF > >Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2837 From: Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 1:49pm Subject: U.S.: China boarded spy plane Bush 'troubled' by Chinese stand, demands 'immediate access' to 24 U.S. airmenNBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports Monday on the escalating incident involving 24 U.S. airmen. MSNBC WASHINGTON, April 2 ­ The last communication from the crew of the U.S. spy plane that made an emergency landing in China was that armed Chinese soldiers were boarding the plane, U.S. officials said Monday. As international tensions over the incident escalated, President Bush demanded "immediate access" to the crew and plane, but China indicated U.S. diplomats wouldn't be allowed to meet with the crew until Tuesday. April 2 ­ Adm. Dennis Blair, the commander of U.S. Pacific Military Forces, tells 'Today' that the Chinese fighter should have stayed out of the way of the U.S. aircraft "I'M TROUBLED by the lack of a timely Chinese response to our request," Bush said in a brief statement at the White House. "Our embassy officials are on the ground and prepared to visit the crew and aircraft as soon as the Chinese government allows them to do so." He did not say what the United States might do if the crew and aircraft, being held on China's Hainan Island, were not released soon. Soon after, a State Department spokesman said China had since indicated that U.S. diplomats would be allowed to meet with the crew on Tuesday. China's foreign minister, Tang Jiaxuan, told reporters he hoped "an adequate solution can be found soon." But, asked when the U.S. crew would be released, Tang replied: "It's not our plane which hit the American plane, quite the contrary. Our pilot is still missing." China insists the U.S. aircraft hit its fighter jet, while the United States says it's more likely the other way around. The two aircraft collided early Sunday about 70 miles south of Hainan, over the South China Sea. The U.S. plane made an emergency landing, while the Chinese jet reportedly crashed at sea. At the Pentagon, U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told NBC News that the Chinese troops boarded the Navy aircraft to take the crew members off the plane. It's not known if force was used. Advertisement The commander of U.S. Pacific Military Forces, Adm. Dennis Blair, told NBC's "Today" show that the crew would have taken "procedures" to disable or destroy any sensitive equipment and data had they been forced from the plane. MSNBC's military analyst, Ken Allard, noted that boarding the U.S. aircraft would be "a violation of U.S. sovereignty because the plane is U.S. territory, like an embassy." Not since 1968, when North Korea seized the USS Pueblo, has there been such an incident. DESTROYERS NEAR ISLAND Reports from the Pentagon that the U.S. warships off Hainan are there to send a message Navy officials said three destroyers were diverted to an area about 150 to 200 miles off Hainan after having stopped in Hong Kong. The USS Hewitt, Fitzgerald and Higgins had been en route back to the U.S. West Coast after a tour of duty in the Persian Gulf. U.S. officials told NBC News that the move was intended to signal to China that the United States takes the incident very seriously ­ and that the detention of the plane and crew is a violation of international law. The officials added that the law gives the plane and its crew immunity ­ and precludes the Chinese from boarding, inspecting or detaining the aircraft. The United States claims that even though the plane landed on Chinese territory without permission, it did so in a life-threatening emergency and that therefore China has no right under international law to seize the plane. MUTUAL BLAME Blair accused the Chinese jet of violating air practices, saying smaller, faster aircraft are supposed to veer away from larger, slower ones. Reports from Beijing that China has become quiet about the incident, perhaps testing to see how the new U.S. administration reacts to such situations But China has accused the U.S. pilots of ramming its F-8 fighter jet, causing it to crash. The Chinese Foreign Ministry said "the U.S. side has total responsibility for this event," adding that it had lodged a "solemn representation and protest" and reserved the right to seek damages. It threatened further "representations" over the plane's entering what it maintained was Chinese airspace and landing without permission. U.S. officials said the aircraft was in international airspace during what they described as a routine mission. China's Foreign Ministry said two fighters were sent up to track the U.S. plane as it approached Chinese airspace. "The U.S. plane abruptly diverted toward the Chinese planes, and its head and left wing collided with one of the Chinese planes, causing the Chinese plane to crash," it said. But Blair said the EP-3 was large and slow, more likely to have been hit by the nimble Chinese F-8 fighter than the reverse. "It's pretty obvious who bumped who," Blair said Sunday at a news conference in Honolulu. PAST INTERCEPTS Blair said the Chinese were to blame, citing a "pattern of increasingly unsafe behavior" in the South China Sea. "I must tell you that the intercepts by Chinese fighters over the past couple of months have become more aggressive to the point that we felt they were endangering the safety of the Chinese and American aircraft," Blair said. U.S. military officials had "launched a protest at the working level" before Sunday's incident but did not receive a satisfactory response, he said. "We went to the Chinese and said: 'Your aircraft are not intercepting in a professional manner. There's a situation here,'" Blair said. "It's not a normal practice to play bumper cars in the air." NBC's Jim Miklaszewski said encounters with Chinese fighters are frequent as U.S. planes fly along China's coast eavesdropping on military communications. "When these surveillance planes fly near China, they're often intercepted by Chinese planes in a case of cat and mouse," he said. "However, they come dangerously close. The U.S. has warned the Chinese through diplomatic channels several times before to knock it off." TEST FOR BUSH The dispute is likely to complicate relations as the Bush administration and Beijing are still feeling each other out and establish a working relationship. China-U.S. relations had only recently been fully restored after a U.S. plane on a NATO mission bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in May 1999, sparking bitter anti-U.S. street protests in Beijing. China has reacted angrily to renewed U.S. attacks on its human rights record, particularly over its treatment of the Falun Gong spiritual movement, and Bush has complained over the detention of a U.S.-based academic in China accused of spying. In the next few weeks, Bush is due to make a decision that could have a fundamental impact on the course of relations during his term ­ whether to go ahead with U.S. arms sales to Taiwan. Beijing has waged a vigorous campaign to kill the sale, particularly the transfer of AEGIS-equipped Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers. Squadron leader denies China's take SENSITIVE SPY TARGET For the past eight years, the Chinese military has been the top priority for the Navy EP-3s operating in the western Pacific. One of the top missions for the planes is to provide data to U.S. Navy aircraft battle groups, according to intelligence documents read to NBC News. China's military uses Hainan Island to keep an eye on the South China Sea. It is covered with military bases because of its proximity to Vietnam and the Spratley Islands, which are claimed by China and five other countries and are among the U.S. Navy's prime targets for observation. Parts of the Spratleys are claimed by China, Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan, Vietnam and the Philippines. The United States officially takes no position on the dispute but insists that freedom of navigation must be maintained in the important South China Sea route. The EP-3, which is about the size of a Boeing 737, is an unarmed four-engine propeller plane that is packed with electronics for listening in on radio signals and monitoring radar sites. There are 12 EP-3s worldwide, according to NBC sources. The EP-3 has 20 intelligence "positions" on board, each monitored by a Navy specialist. The plane can fly up to 12 hours at 28,000 feet and can constantly monitor the early warning and fire control radar of a target as well as communications. Data can be recorded on board or transmitted. Printable version Source: U.S. Pacific Command/Washington Post NBC News' Robert Windrem in New York, Eric Baculinao in Beijing, Ned Colt in Hong Kong and Jim Miklaszewski in Washington and The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report. Official statement on incident from the U.S. Pacific Command EOM HAVE A GREAT DAY !!! ---------- http://www.msnbc.com/news/553032.asp [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 2838 From: A Grudko Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 4:12pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 554...Lisa ----- Original Message ----- > THE EVERYDAY INFO SENT ALONG BY "JMA," et. al. IS PRICELESS INDEED, HAVE A > CHUCKLE AND GET ON WITH IT. REGARDS, JOHN R. DILLON Heck, It's James' list, his call. The stuff most of us deal with can be pretty serious so a bit of diversion is welcome. If my mail opens on a joke I hit the delete button 99% of the time (unless it's a report on G Dubaya's latest press conference). Thank heavans we don't have the petty posturing and bickering I see on so many other lists. I admit, I don't send - or pass - quite so many off topic posts to the lists I moderate, but I guess on a quiet (posting) day I might send an irrelevant message just to make sure everyone knew the list was still there. I can tell you that of the 20 or so lists I participate in, this one gives me more useable knowledge than any other - including the ones I run. jma must be doing something right. Andy Grudko. D.P.M., Grad I.S, (S.A.) CEO - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime investigation & intelligence Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (Past SA Chairman), UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWA, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done right - first time" 2839 From: Charles P Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 7:02pm Subject: TSCM humor... change a light bulb? How many TSCMer's does it take to change a light bulb? 0 really, but at least 3 to 5 or more to perform the required insection. 1 to search for RF emissions 1 to check carrier current 1 to run the o'scope looking for audio on the power line 1 to contact the authorities to perform the actual change, since we are only there to inspect, document our findings, and report with recommendations to the client. 1 to explain to the client that just because we found a bad bulb today, that doesn't mean another one won't go bad after we've left, and that there are other bulbs in other offices that we did not inspect since they were not in the specified areas of the sweep. 1 to post a joke about it to the mailing list There must be some other necessary operations I've forgotten... 2840 From: Richard Thieme Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:08pm Subject: Re: List Policy and Guidelines Jim, in your spare time, why don't you turn this into a column or article? it's funny it's true it has attitude it's educational etc etc - for a trade pub - enhancing it wouldn't take too much. It's really the rump of the best kind of piece - an emotional flow with a lot of energy carrying along a lot of useful information that could only come from an expert, so it makes multiple points and does it succinctly. why would be a good trade pub for it? RT At 02:07 PM 04/02/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks RGF, > >As the list moderator let me say a few things here, > >TSCM and technical security as some pretty serious stuff, stressful >as all dickens, and so on. We work long hours under less then >favorable conditions. > >It's up at 4 am, drive 90 minutes to a client site, spend an hour >unloading 2 tons of lab gear on site, and spend the next 16 hours >using equipment to climb around every nook and cranny of the clients >location where you may or may not find a bug. Then repack and reload >the 2 tons of equipment back on the truck, and drive back to the >office, type up the report so you can get it to them in the morning, >and it your lucky sneak in 3-4 hours of sleep before getting to to >repeat to whole thing the next morning. > >Of course during this whole thing you back will spasm up on you while >unloading the truck, the clients employees will try to steal you >laptop, the CEO of the company turns into Charles Manson, the PI who >brought you in plants a device to be found, the head of security >wants you to tap some phones, the accounting department still hasn't >aid for the last sweep, and the bloody power just went out knocking >out your laptop. CEO's that WANT a sweep just to make themselves feel >important, attorneys who only want to pay you if you find something, >anti-government types ranting about black helicopters, delusionary >mental patients, and so on. > >On top of this add: bleeding edge instruments that are finicky, rot >gut coffee, no lunch (not counting the two stale donuts), people with >attitudes, mental patients calling six times a day, never enough >power cords, fogged up Xray film, NLJD getting false hits, phones >that aren't wired right, firewalls with default password, locks that >never work the right way, and everybody either trying to get you to >work for free or telling you that "it's not their responsibility or >jurisdiction". > >For a real bonus add some big corporate client who just bought a >broadband diode detector system from some New York Spyshop for a >quarter million dollars and has convinced himself that his office is >riddled with bugs (but who gets pissed at you for telling him that >his equipment is of minimal value, and that his office is free of >bugs). > >That said, it is healthy to pass around some bits of humor on a >regular basis as those of us to perform several hard core sweeps a >week need to vent off out steam. Most of the people on this list can >relate to what I am talking about, and I would encourage anybody who >has a problem with that policy o unsubscribe. As list moderator I >have always encouraged list member to swap humor on a regular basis >and to vent a little steam (but please play nice). > >PS: On a side note I would point out that THIS list is the largest of >it kind anywhere in the world, and that a large percentage of the >membership consists of both government and corporate hard-core TSCM >people. > >So speaks the moderator (who now shuts up), > >-jma > > > > > > >At 12:13 PM -0500 4/2/01, Robert G. Ferrell wrote: >> >None of the recent posts I've read have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do >>>with counter-intelligence, which is obviously to enlightened citizens >>>like me & (I would think) others here, VERY IMPORTANT. >> >>The owner of this list feels that the occasional humorous post is >>well within the scope of TSCM. I happen to agree, inasmuch as humor >>is a vital element in maintaining perspective and balance against >>the sometimes painfully technical nature of TSCM. Humor is a tool >>of the intellect, and an appreciation of irony is a signpost of >>intellectual maturity. >> >>There will be plenty of technobabble in this august forum in the >>future--enough to satisfy even the most hardcore TSCM aficionado. >>For now, though, try to appreciate the intent, if not the actual >>product, of JMA's policy. You can always hit the delete key. >> >>Put another way, stop and smell the roses. >> >>Cheers, >> >>RGF >> >>Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP > >-- > > ======================================================================= > Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? > "In a time of universal deceit, telling the > truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell > ======================================================================= > James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 > Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 > 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ > Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... > ======================================================================= > The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, > Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. > ======================================================================= > > > >======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: >http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... >=================================================== TSKS > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Richard Thieme ThiemeWorks ... professional speaking and business consulting: ThiemeWorks P. O. Box 170737 the impact of computer technology Milwaukee Wisconsin on people in organizations: 53217-8061 helping people stay flexible voice: 414.351.2321 and effective fax: 414.351.5779during times of accelerated change. cell: 414.704.4598 http://www.thiemeworks.com http://www.richardthieme.com - for information on Professional Speaking 2841 From: Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 2:39am Subject: China makes U.S. wait to see crew China makes U.S. wait to see crew Adm. Dennis Blair, commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, describes Sunday's incident at a news conference in Honolulu. April 2 ­ U.S. officials said the Chinese military boarded the top-secret U.S. spy plane. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports. MSNBC WASHINGTON, April 3 ­ With relations already stretched thin, the United States and China played a tense waiting game Tuesday while their diplomats sparred over what to do with 24 Americans confined on an island in the South China Sea. Beijing told U.S. officials they would have to wait until Tuesday night before they could meet with the U.S. crew members, as the two superpowers bickered over the midair collision of military planes that grounded the U.S. crew Sunday. April 2 ­ Adm. Dennis Blair, the commander of U.S. Pacific Military Forces, says the Chinese pilot should have stayed out of the way. BEIJING REFUSED President Bush's demand Monday for "immediate access" to the 24 Americans and their high-tech spy plane. Chinese officials told U.S. diplomats that they would be permitted Tuesday night (Tuesday morning in the United States) to see the crew members, said U.S. ambassador to China Joseph Prueher in Beijing. Prueher's comments to reporters confirmed those made Monday in Washington by White House spokesman Scott McClellan, who said the diplomats expected to meet up with the crew members around then. U.S.-China face offSpy plane collision•Latest news•NBC: U.S. spy flights assume new urgency•Anti-U.S. anxiety in China•Crew of the U.S. plane•Chinese jet got too close, U.S. squadron leader says•Opinions: China syndrome•Special report: The Secret Empire"We had a meeting last night with Assistant Foreign Minister Zhou Wenzhong at the Foreign Ministry where he gave us the expectation that we will see the crew this evening. And we are expecting to do that," Preuher said. U.S. officials said the last communication from the crew ­ 22 Navy personnel, three of them women, as well as an Air Force officer and a Marine ­ was that armed Chinese soldiers were boarding the plane, which made an emergency landing early Sunday after colliding with a Chinese fighter jet, whose pilot China said was still missing. The pilot of the Chinese fighter managed to parachute from his aircraft, the Xinhua news agency reported on Tuesday. It said the search for the missing airman involving 11 ships and more than 20 planes was going on around the clock in the South China Sea. BUSH 'TROUBLED' Bush, who said he was "troubled by the lack of a timely Chinese response to our request," did not say what the United States might do if the crew, being held at a guesthouse on China's Hainan Island, were not released soon. Two defense attaches from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and a diplomat from the U.S. Consulate in Guangzhou were stuck in their hotel in the city of Sanya near the Lingshui military air base, where the plane is parked. They have so far been frustrated in their efforts to make contact with the crew. Advertisement As for the plane, an unarmed Navy EP-3E Aries II bristling with electronics for listening in on radio signals and monitoring radar sites, Bush demanded that it be returned "without further damaging or tampering." The Associated Press reported that the plane stood empty at the military airfield where it landed in the town of Lingshui, quoting a Chinese sailor who refused to give his name when contacted by telephone at an adjacent naval facility. At the Defense Department, U.S. officials told NBC News on condition of anonymity that Chinese troops boarded the Navy aircraft to take the crew members off the plane. It was not known whether force was used. The commander of U.S. Pacific Military Forces, Adm. Dennis Blair, said on NBC's "Today" show that the crew would have taken steps to disable or destroy any sensitive equipment and data had they been forced from the plane. But MSNBC military analyst Ken Allard said the Chinese could still get valuable information from the aircraft, adding that boarding the plane would be "a violation of U.S. sovereignty because the plane is U.S. territory, like an embassy." TENSE DIPLOMATIC SITUATION Not since 1968 has the United States waded through a similar military and diplomatic thicket, when North Korea seized the USS Pueblo. The dispute is likely to complicate relations between Beijing and Washington, which were strained even before Bush took office only 2½ months ago. April 2 ­ NBC's David Gregory reports that President Bush's first major international test involves a country he has said is a competitor, not a strategic partner. Broken relations had only recently been fully mended after a U.S. plane on a NATO mission bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in May 1999, sparking bitter anti-U.S. street protests in Beijing. China has reacted angrily to renewed U.S. attacks on its human rights record, and Bush has complained over the detention of a U.S.-based academic accused of spying. Bush is due soon to decide whether to go ahead with U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, which Beijing has waged a vigorous campaign to kill. China's foreign minister, Tang Jiaxuan, told reporters Monday that he hoped "an adequate solution can be found soon" to the impasse over the plane collision. But the two governments contested virtually every detail of the incident, including who hit whom and in whose territory. "It's not our plane which hit the American plane," Tang told reporters. "Quite the contrary. Our pilot is still missing." The Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement that "the U.S. plane abruptly diverted toward the Chinese planes, and its head and left wing collided with one of the Chinese planes, causing the Chinese plane to crash." China maintained that the collision occurred in Chinese airspace, saying two fighters were sent up to track the U.S. plane as it approached Chinese territory. The United States said its aircraft was in international airspace during what officials described as a routine mission. The Chinese Foreign Ministry concluded that "the U.S. side has total responsibility for this event." It said China had lodged a "solemn representation and protest" and reserved the right to seek damages. U.S. officials, however, characterized the collision as an accident caused when one of two Chinese fighter jets shadowing the U.S. plane ran into it. Blair said the EP-3 was large and slow, and much more likely to have been hit by the nimble Chinese F-8 fighter than the reverse. "It's pretty obvious who bumped who," Blair said Sunday at a news conference in Honolulu, adding, "I must tell you that the intercepts by Chinese fighters over the past couple of months have become more aggressive to the point that we felt they were endangering the safety of the Chinese and American aircraft." U.S. officials in Washington told NBC News' Andrea Mitchell that Washington did not think the Chinese jet deliberately rammed the U.S. plane, but they insisted that it was still at fault, describing Chinese pilots as "notoriously bad airmen." U.S. military officials had "launched a protest at the working level" before Sunday's incident but did not receive a satisfactory response, Blair said. "It's not a normal practice to play bumper cars in the air." NBC's Jim Miklaszewski said encounters with Chinese fighters were frequent as U.S. planes flew along China's coast eavesdropping on military communications. "When these surveillance planes fly near China, they're often intercepted by Chinese planes in a case of cat and mouse," he said. "However, they come dangerously close. The U.S. has warned the Chinese through diplomatic channels several times before to knock it off." DIPLOMATIC MANEUVERS After the collision, the U.S. plane made an emergency landing without Chinese permission on the island of Hainan, about 70 miles south in the South China Sea. Bush offered help in finding the missing Chinese pilot and his jet, but he met with no public response. Reports from the Pentagon that the U.S. warships off Hainan are there to send a message So far, the diplomatic maneuvers were being conducted at Cabinet level. A senior U.S. official said that after discussions with his foreign policy team, Bush decided not to call Chinese leaders himself, concerned that doing so would suggest that the White House was in a crisis mode. "We don't want to overreact and make an accident become an incident," a U.S. official told NBC News. But in a signal to China, three destroyers were temporarily diverted to an area about 150 to 200 miles off Hainan after having stopped in Hong Kong. The USS Hewitt, Fitzgerald and Higgins had been en route back to the U.S. West Coast after a tour of duty in the Persian Gulf. Pentagon officials said the three destroyers lingered in the region to "monitor the situation" before being "released to proceed on duties as assigned" several hours later. U.S. officials told NBC News that the move was intended to alert China that the United States took the incident very seriously ­ and that the detention of the plane and its crew was a violation of international law. The officials added that the law gave the plane and its crew immunity and precluded the Chinese from boarding, inspecting or detaining the aircraft. The United States claimed that even though the plane landed on Chinese territory without permission, it did so in a life-threatening emergency and that therefore China had no right under international law to seize it. INTELLIGENCE BONANZA While officials said the safety of the U.S. crew was their paramount concern, they were also intent on recovering the spy plane. In London, a military expert said China could sell any information it obtained to the Russians, giving them access to "one of the most sophisticated intelligence-gathering airplanes in the world." "It's catastrophic for the U.S. if the Chinese have managed to gain access to the aircraft and if they've managed to obtain access to the computers and the hard disks," said Paul Beaver of Jane's Information Group, publisher of the Jane's Defense Weekly, the standard reference on military equipment. NBC News' Robert Windrem in New York and Jim Miklaszewski, Andrea Mitchell and David Gregory in Washington; MSNBC.com's Alex Johnson and Miguel Llanos; The Associated Press; and Reuters contributed to this report. HAVE A GREAT DAY !!! ---------- http://www.msnbc.com/news/553032.asp [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 2842 From: Talisker Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 2:42pm Subject: Re: humour or humor I seem to remember me posting a similar mail to Lisa about 12 months ago, and getting a similar rebuke I have now been assimilated, resistance WAS futile! I enjoy the humor, if I'm busy I just filter by subject - better to reduce the signal to noise ratio than have no signal at all All I would say, as I did 12 months ago is why not start the subject with the word humor thereby aiding the filtering and increasing the signal to noise ratio by 3dB Take Care Andy PS Also Lisa was extremely polite with her remarks, it seems only fair to extend to her the courtesy - on the subject of netiquette the use of capitals is not good http://www.networkintrusion.co.uk Talisker's Network Security Tools List Security Tools Notification http://groups.yahoo.com/group/security-tools/join ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Digest Number 554...Lisa > LIGHTEN UP LISA! > > YES, WE ALL READ WITH PASSION ITEMS CONCERNING OUR CHOSEN > PROFESSION...SOMETIMES IT IS NICE TO HAVE A LITTLE HUMOR BESTOWED UPON US. > > THE EVERYDAY INFO SENT ALONG BY "JMA," et. al. IS PRICELESS INDEED, HAVE A > CHUCKLE AND GET ON WITH IT. SCHOOL WAS OUT FOR ONE DAY!!! > > REGARDS, > JOHN R. DILLON > tdifinc@c... > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 2843 From: Martin Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 4:12pm Subject: Caller ID Question I received a call from a client who described the following circumstances that I thought I would get your collective thoughts on: An individual is in litigation with an area bank. He reports, and has a photo to prove, that he found on his cordless instrument's caller ID the name of the bank that he is opposed to in court and his own telephone number. Of course, he is insisting that his telephone is being monitored by this bank, which is silly, but if what he says is true, it really doesn't make sense...unless it was some sort of glitch at the exchange and just happened to coincidently, be his opposition in court. Anyone have any ideas? Martin Brown Brown & Sikes, Inc. Dallas, Texas 2844 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 7:12pm Subject: Re: Caller ID Question I would first suspect that it is a hoax, and that the information he has was fabricated and then documented so as to give the guy some "evidence" to wave around. After disproving the hoax possibility, it could be a case where someone from the bank simply called to talk to him, he saw the number and flipped out. Third, it could just be a screw up on the part of the CO. -jma At 4:12 PM -0500 4/3/01, Martin wrote: > I received a call from a client who described the following >circumstances that >I thought I would get your collective thoughts on: > > An individual is in litigation with an area bank. He reports, and >has a photo to >prove, that he found on his cordless instrument's caller ID the name of >the bank that >he is opposed to in court and his own telephone number. Of course, he >is insisting that his telephone is being monitored by this bank, which >is silly, but if what he says is true, it really doesn't make >sense...unless it was some sort of glitch at the >exchange and just happened to coincidently, be his opposition in court. > >Anyone have any ideas? > >Martin Brown >Brown & Sikes, Inc. >Dallas, Texas -- ======================================================================= Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - George Orwell ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 546-3803 Granite Island Group Fax: (978) 546-9467 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@t... ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= 2845 From: Charles P Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:31pm Subject: Re: Caller ID Question It could easily be a call from a payphone at the bank. Many payphones will have the caller id show up as the location of the phone. Or it may just be that someone at the bank gave him a call. There is little reason to think that it would imply eavesdropping. charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" To: "TSCM-Group" Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:12 PM Subject: [TSCM-L] Caller ID Question > I received a call from a client who described the following > circumstances that > I thought I would get your collective thoughts on: > > An individual is in litigation with an area bank. He reports, and > has a photo to > prove, that he found on his cordless instrument's caller ID the name of > the bank that > he is opposed to in court and his own telephone number. Of course, he > is insisting that his telephone is being monitored by this bank, which > is silly, but if what he says is true, it really doesn't make > sense...unless it was some sort of glitch at the > exchange and just happened to coincidently, be his opposition in court. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Martin Brown > Brown & Sikes, Inc. > Dallas, Texas > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 2846 From: Dawn Star Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:20am Subject: Microwave Effects Anyone have information on this: The theoretical possibility of psycho telemetric influence (the capability of affecting human behavior by transmitted radio signals at controlled frequencies) has been suggested by Soviet neuropsychological investigations at Uralyera and Novosibirsk (Luria and Perov, 1974a, 1975c, 1976a), which can cause involuntary subliminal psychological energy field compliance to operative microwave apparatus. 2847 From: Miguel Puchol Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:23am Subject: RE: Microwave Effects Ahhhh! That explains why every time I heat up the chicken in my microwave, I just sit there staring at it going around and around for five minutes.... All the best, Mike > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Dawn Star [mailto:bratkid@e...] > Enviado el: miercoles, 04 de abril de 2001 18:20 > Para: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > Asunto: [TSCM-L] Microwave Effects > > > Anyone have information on this: > > The theoretical possibility of psycho telemetric influence (the > capability > of affecting human behavior by transmitted radio signals at controlled > frequencies) has been suggested by Soviet neuropsychological > investigations > at Uralyera and Novosibirsk (Luria and Perov, 1974a, 1975c, 1976a), which > can cause involuntary subliminal psychological energy field compliance to > operative microwave apparatus. > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 2848 From: Talisker Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 0:15pm Subject: Re: humor Microwave Effects I seem to remember in the late 80's an elderly lady drying her poodle in the microwave, she received a lot of money due to the psychological distress, which is minor compared to the distress of the poodle :o) Andy http://www.networkintrusion.co.uk Talisker's Network Security Tools List Security Tools Notification http://groups.yahoo.com/group/security-tools/join ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn Star" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 5:20 PM Subject: [TSCM-L] Microwave Effects > Anyone have information on this: > > The theoretical possibility of psycho telemetric influence (the capability > of affecting human behavior by transmitted radio signals at controlled > frequencies) has been suggested by Soviet neuropsychological investigations > at Uralyera and Novosibirsk (Luria and Perov, 1974a, 1975c, 1976a), which > can cause involuntary subliminal psychological energy field compliance to > operative microwave apparatus. > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 2849 From: Robert G. Ferrell Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 0:24pm Subject: Re: Microwave Effects >The theoretical possibility of psycho telemetric influence (the capability >of affecting human behavior by transmitted radio signals at controlled >frequencies) has been suggested by Soviet neuropsychological investigations >at Uralyera and Novosibirsk (Luria and Perov, 1974a, 1975c, 1976a), which >can cause involuntary subliminal psychological energy field compliance to >operative microwave apparatus. Well, about two or three times a year someone walks into the local FBI office and claims that some sinister organization is trying to injure and/or control them by directing microwaves at them from the towers that dot the landscape around here. I do know that one of the initiation tricks played on soldiers newly assigned to mobile communications units equipped with microwave transmitters in the '60s was to get the new person to climb up on top of the truck, ostensibly to examine something inside the transmitting antenna, then turn the transmitter on for a max power burst while the person was in the signal path. Usually knocked 'em right off the van. Or so an old friend of mine claimed. ;-) Cheers, RGF Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP Information Systems Security Officer National Business Center U. S. Dept. of the Interior Robert_G_Ferrell@n... ======================================== Who goeth without humor goeth unarmed. ======================================== 2850 From: Miguel Puchol Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 2:10pm Subject: RE: Microwave Effects Well, extreme microwave power (as with military radars & the like) can injure someone, but rather on the physical than on the mental side. I image first symptoms to be a warm feeling, getting hotter, and a hell of a headache... In any case, this initiation trick is one that could have done a lot of damage, and landed someone in a court(martial). All the best, Mike > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Robert G. Ferrell [mailto:rferrell@r...] > Enviado el: miercoles, 04 de abril de 2001 19:24 > Para: TSCM-L@yahoogroups.com > Asunto: Re: [TSCM-L] Microwave Effects > > > >The theoretical possibility of psycho telemetric influence (the > capability > >of affecting human behavior by transmitted radio signals at controlled > >frequencies) has been suggested by Soviet neuropsychological > investigations > >at Uralyera and Novosibirsk (Luria and Perov, 1974a, 1975c, > 1976a), which > >can cause involuntary subliminal psychological energy field > compliance to > >operative microwave apparatus. > > Well, about two or three times a year someone walks into the local > FBI office and claims that some sinister organization is trying to > injure and/or control them by directing microwaves at them from > the towers that dot the landscape around here. > > I do know that one of the initiation tricks played on soldiers newly > assigned to mobile communications units equipped with microwave > transmitters > in the '60s was to get the new person to climb up on top of the truck, > ostensibly to examine something inside the transmitting antenna, > then turn the > transmitter on for a max power burst while the person was in the > signal path. > Usually knocked 'em right off the van. > > Or so an old friend of mine claimed. > > ;-) > > Cheers, > > RGF > > Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP > Information Systems Security Officer > National Business Center > U. S. Dept. of the Interior > Robert_G_Ferrell@n... > ======================================== > Who goeth without humor goeth unarmed. > ======================================== > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > 2851 From: Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 2:28pm Subject: Caller I.D question In litigation, all " coincidences" must be viewed suspiciously. Material infomation should not be routed through the line(s) in question, until the lawsuit is settled. Often, " when in doubt, there is no doubt." RE ; Humor I laugh , therefore i am. A philosopher once said ,"Life is a veil of tears between two eternitys" Laughter pierces that veil,and allows the spirit to soar. ; >) HAVE A GREAT DAY !!!