From: Miguel Puchol Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 1:48pm Subject: RE: Re: Icom R3 Steve Would be the first time Icom listens to us little people... > My guess is they are trying to find an elegant way to slope > tune FM video at 2.4. They probably had not considered > anything except broadcast video (AM) originally. But then > someone asked about the 2.4 toys and they had to backpedal > some. All the best, Mike 1503 From: Marty Kaiser Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 5:21am Subject: Re: Digest Number 376 Hi I recently updated the instruction page on the Raster Analysis System. Check it out at http://www.martykaiser.com/ras515a.htm Marty 1504 From: Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 9:25am Subject: Re: FYI - The other side of the investigation Greg Horton: Thank you for posting the statement by Director Freeh that seems to me to clearly describe the case basics. In spite of all the criticism of various federal agencies involved in this case - - the fact remains that illegal act/acts took place and there was a guilty plea. I know it is often popular to criticise the federal government for actions and perceived excessive actions but we would be in pretty sorry shape as a country if a lot of effort wasn't put into protecting nuclear weapons classified information. 1505 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 2:33pm Subject: Sniffing 2.4 gig video boxes In response to several requests, copied below is a message I sent to someone recently discussing my experience with sweeping for the low cost 2.4 gig video and audio transmitters: Hope this is of service to someone. For a few hundred dollars you can build the receiver and a video monitor package. Use the best 2.4 antenna you can with as short a length of feedline as you can get away with, in all cases less than a foot. I mounted a 6dBm patch antenna to a pingpong paddle, as a convenient way to paint the walls and ceiling when sweeping. A larger patch antenna is good, keeping in mind the pattern of the thing. Use audio too, into a speaker, as there are audio-only bugs built from the video transmitters. ********************************************* Regarding 2.4 gig surveillance equipment: 99% of this 2.4 gig wireless video garbage is made from converted Wavecom modules, sometimes with the pads bypassed to give 20-50 mw RF out. The Wavecom TX are on 4 distinct transmit channels. The Wavecom RX are the same 4 channels, but the front ends and I.F. filtering on the receivers is so crappy that the receivers will hear one and usually two adjacent channels fine. Due to the fact that the Wavecom units power up on channel 1, chances are excellent any surveillance or monitoring will be on channel 1. They are 4 channel devices where you can select channels 2-3-4 by a stepper switch, but on power up they revert to channel 1 unless some mods have been done to change this feature (unlikely but possible). The best and cheapest sweep goodie for 2.4 gig wireless video is a Wavecom (or same thing with another name on the label) receiver module with batt pack and small batt operated video monitor. Use original patch antenna and move around area being inspected. Take a $3 hardware store bimetal lamp flasher, turn out all lights in the target area, and plug one lamp into the flasher. You easily will see on the Wavetek receiver/monitor the pattern of the flashing light if there is an "open camera" anywhere in the vicinity. Once you see something, kill the flashing lamp and shine a penlight around till you hit the camera. Start with channel 1 on the Wavecom RX and advance through its 4 channels doing a separate sweep on each channel. You may not see a clear picture depending on many factors, but you will see the light flashing, and that is a giveaway to inspect further. Almost child's play and in testing we have been able to identify a signal at the fringe of the coverage area. This test setup is more sensitive than the stock Wavecom (because of the gain antenna you are pointing manually) so you will be able to sniff from further away than the listening post likely would be. If the above does not reveal anything, it is extremely unlikely there is any 2.4 activity in the vicinity. Remember range of FCC stuff on 2.4 is like 300 feet MAX and probably less. Even bumping up the power does not increase range that much. For indoor applications of 2.4 gigs, the listening post almost always will be no further away than through one or two interior walls. A way to test the Wavecom receiver setup is to heat a cup of water in a microwave. Depending on leakage from the microwave, you should see hash in the Wavecom image for up to several rooms away. Remember the 2.4 gig video stuff is on the precise frequency as a microwave oven. There also is some crappy audio-only packages made around the Wavecom models. The Wavecom receiver will still hear them but of course you go for audio feedback instead of watching for the flashing lamp on the video. Virtually all the Wavecom-type devices are the same manufacture and freqs regardless of packaging, so you can buy the cheapest one from a catalog anywhere and have good results. Be sure to get the crummy Wavecom receiver though, not a better receiver of another brand. You want the high sensitivity (inexpensive to create) and the poor selectivity which goes along with the crummy receiver. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 1506 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 5:24pm Subject: Re: Sniffing 2.4 gig video boxes Steve, Great post, I thank you, and the list thanks you. At 3:33 PM -0400 9/19/00, Steve Uhrig wrote: > >In response to several requests, copied below is a message >I sent to someone recently discussing my experience with >sweeping for the low cost 2.4 gig video and audio >transmitters: > >Hope this is of service to someone. For a few hundred >dollars you can build the receiver and a video monitor >package. Use the best 2.4 antenna you can with as short a >length of feedline as you can get away with, in all cases >less than a foot. I mounted a 6dBm patch antenna to a >pingpong paddle, as a convenient way to paint the walls and >ceiling when sweeping. A larger patch antenna is good, >keeping in mind the pattern of the thing. Use audio too, >into a speaker, as there are audio-only bugs built from the >video transmitters. I have had good luck just using a "1 inch paperclip" (almost 0 dB) for use as an omni directional, and a small spiral log periodic (about 8-9 dB) on a pistol grip for a directional antenna. I tried various patch antenna but had trouble with the pattern. Also, I found that using a parabolic dish provided too much gain for use inside the facility, but was great for work outside. I have also tried some things with octave horns (16 + dB), but was not impressed with the results .vs. cost. > > >********************************************* > >Regarding 2.4 gig surveillance equipment: > >99% of this 2.4 gig wireless video garbage is made from >converted Wavecom modules, sometimes with the pads bypassed >to give 20-50 mw RF out. > >The Wavecom TX are on 4 distinct transmit channels. > >The Wavecom RX are the same 4 channels, but the front ends >and I.F. filtering on the receivers is so crappy that the >receivers will hear one and usually two adjacent channels >fine. It's more a problem of the channels overlapping. The Wavecom and similar units I evaluated actually had fairly righteous IF filtering. >Due to the fact that the Wavecom units power up on channel >1, chances are excellent any surveillance or monitoring >will be on channel 1. They are 4 channel devices where you >can select channels 2-3-4 by a stepper switch, but on power >up they revert to channel 1 unless some mods have been done >to change this feature (unlikely but possible). The older Wavcom units (the 1995 design) had a momentary switch that would step the voltages... with the new ones it is a 4 position slide switch. >The best and cheapest sweep goodie for 2.4 gig wireless >video is a Wavecom (or same thing with another name on the >label) receiver module with batt pack and small batt >operated video monitor. Use original patch antenna and move >around area being inspected. I strongly agree, but recently obtained one of the Clover units that integrate all of that into a small handheld box (and it scans by itself). >Take a $3 hardware store bimetal lamp flasher, turn out all >lights in the target area, and plug one lamp into the >flasher. You easily will see on the Wavetek >receiver/monitor the pattern of the flashing light if there >is an "open camera" anywhere in the vicinity. Once you see >something, kill the flashing lamp and shine a penlight >around till you hit the camera. Start with channel 1 on the >Wavecom RX and advance through its 4 channels doing a >separate sweep on each channel. > >You may not see a clear picture depending on many factors, >but you will see the light flashing, and that is a giveaway >to inspect further. > >Almost child's play and in testing we have been able to >identify a signal at the fringe of the coverage area. This >test setup is more sensitive than the stock Wavecom >(because of the gain antenna you are pointing manually) so >you will be able to sniff from further away than the >listening post likely would be. > >If the above does not reveal anything, it is extremely >unlikely there is any 2.4 activity in the vicinity. >Remember range of FCC stuff on 2.4 is like 300 feet MAX and >probably less. Even bumping up the power does not increase >range that much. For indoor applications of 2.4 gigs, the >listening post almost always will be no further away than >through one or two interior walls. My experience is that if the pad is intact the unit will have a range of 50-75 ft max (indoors), and 150-200 feet of so outdoors (line of sight). Now if someone bypasses the pad resistor and/or increases the voltages on the PA you can bump well over 100 mW and get some pretty decent range (but the transmitter becomes easy to find). >A way to test the Wavecom receiver setup is to heat a cup >of water in a microwave. Depending on leakage from the >microwave, you should see hash in the Wavecom image for up >to several rooms away. Remember the 2.4 gig video stuff is >on the precise frequency as a microwave oven. You will get a "rolling screen", and bands rising on the display as the impeller/deflector blade in the microwave turns. Microwave ovens run at 2.450 GHz... The Wavecoms run from 2.411 to 2.48 and effectively straddle the microwave oven channel. >There also is some crappy audio-only packages made around >the Wavecom models. The Wavecom receiver will still hear >them but of course you go for audio feedback instead of >watching for the flashing lamp on the video. Wavecom actually sells (outside the US) several voice only 2-2.5 GHz subcarrier modulated devices. >Virtually all the Wavecom-type devices are the same >manufacture and freqs regardless of packaging, so you can >buy the cheapest one from a catalog anywhere and have good >results. Be sure to get the crummy Wavecom receiver though, >not a better receiver of another brand. You want the high >sensitivity (inexpensive to create) and the poor >selectivity which goes along with the crummy receiver. > >Steve The Wavecom stuff is strictly consumer grade toys, but every spyshop with a hot melt glue gun have been cramming these things into concealments and calling themselves as a "manufacturer. -jma ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 381-9111 Granite Island Group Fax: 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@tscm.com ======================================================================= Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. ======================================================================= 1507 From: Dawn Star Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 0:08am Subject: Tap to Bug ratio "But the threats are far more likely to be on the phone system or lines. There, it's not glamourous. You don't wear a necktie. You wear old grubbies and slither through crawl spaces and rat infested basements and areas God never intended for people to go." Steve Uhrig Well said. This is the real world of front line sweeping, not an esoteric electronic theory, not a specification text book quote, it is up close, your nose down in the wires! Roger Tolces, Electronic Security, Los Angeles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 1508 From: A Grudko Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:41am Subject: Re: Re: Icom R3 ----- Original Message ----- > > It is a 20-25 MHz signal that is tunable within a 50 MHz window, so it's pretty much a case of "fishing with dynamite". But we must also keep in mind that the Wavecoms can be easily re-tuned (tweak a pot) to operate between 1.43 to 2.53 GHz. I think I'll take up an easier profession, such as un-anaesthesiaised brain surgery carried out on a roller coaster! Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime investigation & intelligence Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (SA Chairman), SAIS, UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWL, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done right - first time" 1509 From: A Grudko Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:38am Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" ----- Original Message ----- > Extremely dangerous to the "enemy," using my Radio Shack 64-1950. as we don't have Radio Shack in this country, what is a 64-1950? Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime investigation & intelligence Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (SA Chairman), SAIS, UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWL, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done right - first time" 1510 From: A Grudko Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:36am Subject: "Tap to Bug ratio" Common terms: I think that to the public, 'Bugged' simply means that someone is covertly intercepting a communication. To them, 'Tapped' only refers to phones. My understanding is that; 'TAP' is the physical (including inductive) attachment to an existing cable which by design carries signal/data, for the purpose of covert interception. "Bug" is the covert electronic interception of a conversation/data using some kind of introduced radiated transmission. "Intercept" (a term not yet used in this debate but of equal interest) is to gather audio/video/data which is deliberatly radiated but not meant for the interceptor (pager, cellular phone, cordless phone, 2-way radio, radio trunking, mains-modulation, baby-monitors, wireless intercoms etc) Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime investigation & intelligence Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (SA Chairman), SAIS, UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWL, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done right - first time" 1511 From: A Grudko Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:18am Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" Quote> > I still think that a good flashlight is the most important tool you can have, and that the human eyeballs are the most valuable instrument. > -jma Dear Abbey I recently had one of my staff conceal a 2.4 Ghz based spread spectrum 100Mw audio device on a Duracell pp9 in a cake which we sent into a fanatic's compound. After an hour we lost signal. Do you think my staff don't love me or do you think the Duracell bunny converted to the fanatics? J Reno A $10 dentist's mirror will find a bug with a flat battery which a $ 10 000 SA will miss. Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime investigation & intelligence Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (SA Chairman), SAIS, UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWL, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done right - first time" 1512 From: andre holmes <1ach@g...> Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 9:22am Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" ANDY its a flat head and Phillips screwdriver not rated for electrical work. ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Grudko" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Extremely dangerous to the "enemy," using my Radio Shack 64-1950. > > as we don't have Radio Shack in this country, what is a 64-1950? > > Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime > investigation & intelligence > Johannesburg - Cape Town - Durban - Pretoria - UK - US - Canada - > Australia - Israel - Bosnia. Agents in 41 countries - www.grudko.com - (+27 > 11) 465 9673 - 465 1487 (Fax) - Est. 1981 > GIN (Charter), SACI (Pres), WAD, CALI, SASFed, SASA, SAMLF, SCIP (SA > Chairman), SAIS, > UKPIN, AFIO (OS), IWWL, PRETrust, IPA, AmChamCom "When you need it done > right - first time" > > > > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > 1513 From: Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 6:17am Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" In a message dated 9/20/00 7:17:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, agrudko@i... writes: << as we don't have Radio Shack in this country, what is a 64-1950? >> Page 204 Radio Shack Catalog Reversible Driver Does the job of two screwdrivers. Has a 3/16 slot type on one end and a #1 Phillips on the other. Durable, easy grip INSULATED handle. Snap in blades. #64-1950 $2.79 US 1514 From: Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 6:19am Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" In a message dated 9/20/00 7:43:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 1ach@g... writes: << ANDY its a flat head and Phillips screwdriver not rated for electrical work. >> Not rated by who for electrical work? 1515 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 0:16pm Subject: Combining Earth, Fire, and Water [Tongue in Cheek] Heck, everybody knows that all you really need from Radio Shack for TSCM is: 1 ea 22-802 Digital Voltmeter (a cheap analog VOM may also work) 1 ea 20-006Antenna (a coat hanger also works) 1 ea 276-1123Bag of Diodes (to detect signals, some gallium is also good) 1 ea 61-2625Flashlight (you can hold between your teeth) If you want to make your "bug detector" more sophisticated, and more sensitive (so you can make the big bucks) add the following: 1 ea 271-312 Resistor Assortment (for biassing network) 1 ea 276-16042N3906 PNP Small Signal Transistors 1 ea 23-5539 volt 1604 type battery (use should be obvious) Strangely enough the above equipment will actually detect bugs, and will often offer better results then most spyshop bug detectors costing thousands of dollars. Seriously folks, a diode, a coat hanger, and a flashlight in the hands of a skilled TSCM'er will actually be more effective then a "Walter Mitty wanna-be" with a quarter million dollars in gear. Of course if you give a skilled TSCM'er a quarter million in equipment he can find virtually any kind of technical mischief... the symphony is in the skill of the musicians, not in the value of the instrument (owning a Stradivarius doe not make you Yo Yo Ma). -jma ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 381-9111 Granite Island Group Fax: 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@tscm.com ======================================================================= Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. ======================================================================= 1516 From: Steve Uhrig Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 0:31pm Subject: Wavecoms for video sniffing > But we must also keep in mind that the Wavecoms can be > easily re-tuned (tweak a pot) to operate between 1.43 to > 2.53 GHz. Not true. Frequency is burned into a PROM. Certain people have disassembled the PROM and offer rewritten ones with user-specified frequencies. These primarily are for amateur use, to keep all 4 channels within the amateur (ham radio) allocation at S band. Even so, the things don't want to wander much away from their design frequency. You can move the transmitter a few hundred megs, but performance drops off. Reworking the thing to get decent performance outside the band it was designed for is beyond the realm of most. Steve ******************************************************************* Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA) Mfrs of electronic surveillance equip mailto:Steve@s... website http://www.swssec.com tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190 "In God we trust, all others we monitor" ******************************************************************* 1517 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 3:39pm Subject: Re: Wavecoms for video sniffing At 1:31 PM -0400 9/20/00, Steve Uhrig wrote: > > > But we must also keep in mind that the Wavecoms can be > > easily re-tuned (tweak a pot) to operate between 1.43 to > > 2.53 GHz. > >Not true. Frequency is burned into a PROM. > >Certain people have disassembled the PROM and offer >rewritten ones with user-specified frequencies. These >primarily are for amateur use, to keep all 4 channels >within the amateur (ham radio) allocation at S band. > >Even so, the things don't want to wander much away from >their design frequency. You can move the transmitter a few >hundred megs, but performance drops off. Reworking the >thing to get decent performance outside the band it was >designed for is beyond the realm of most. > >Steve Er... yes true... On the older units (Fall 95 until Fall 99)... The PROM is used to supply a DC tuning voltage via the Mitel chip to a Hyperabrupt Junction (aka: D1-BB833 variable capacitor) which in turn creates the modulation frequency. D1 is the component near the 7 mm strip line filter. and is surrounded by 4-5 SMT chip caps (2-4 pF each), and a 750? ohm resistor. On the older units you could simple unsolder one SMT resistor and wire in a Bourns 25 turn pot to provide your own tuning voltages. The board rev is A, with a PN of C1902100-004 which dates from a fall 95 design registered with the FCC. On the newer units (Post Winter 1999)... They use a four slide position switch, over a dozen SMT resistors, and two variable mini pots so the eavesdropper can simply tweak the pots... or simply replace then with a single 100k multi-turn pot. I guess I should have pointed out that on the older units you had to ADD a pot to be able to tweak it, but the newer units already had the pots (but that an eavesdropper could add their own). The newer units were introduced last Fall, and is why the prices dropped so strongly a year ago (along with the smaller form factor and DBS control circuit). In both cases the NE592 chip acts as a modulator as it creates a deviation/shift of the tuning voltages based on the incoming baseband composite signal (with about 10 MHz of bandwidth). The components attached to the 592 can also be modified or tweaked to create some really wide, or fairly narrow deviations as well. For example, the eavesdropper could drop out the audio and chroma signals, and use a really wide or narrow deviation, or could "COMB Out", drop out, invert, or otherwise modify the sync signals. Remember, that if the eavesdropper transmits only a monochrome signal (no 3.58 MHz color subcarrier) with no audio signals they could use some relatively narrow deviations and still get a decent video signal. Now if they park that signal down around the digital 1.8 GHz PCS band by "tweaking a pot" and tweak the deviations to match the PCS bandwidths the signal would not be picked up on by most sweepers. Of course the eavesdropper would have to keep his power levels low so as not to draw attention from the PCS provider, and would need to use a high gain antenna to pick his signal out from that of the PCS station. Imagine such a system installed on the outer skin of an office building with the video camera and/or microphone inserted into and though the window gasket, and the transmitter/antenna built into (or behind) a hollowed out brick near the window/radiator/floorboards/etc... James M. Atkinson "The Nefarious Nerd" ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 381-9111 Granite Island Group Fax: 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@tscm.com ======================================================================= Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. ======================================================================= 1518 From: Andre Holmes <1ach@g...> Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 6:26pm Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" MACCF-- what must be considered is that when ever we work with electricity protective materials should always be employed by the person working the circuit. I believe United labitories are the governing agency for all products sold thats related to electricity.I did not fully research the criteria for insulation of certain screw drivers, but did find that at least 1 set of S-drivers has a resistivity of 105 ohms. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" > > In a message dated 9/20/00 7:43:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 1ach@g... > writes: > > << ANDY its a flat head and Phillips screwdriver not rated for electrical > work. >> > > Not rated by who for electrical work? > > ======================================================== > TSCM-L Technical Security Mailing List > "In a multitude of counselors there is strength" > > To subscribe to the TSCM-L mailing list visit: > http://www.onelist.com/community/TSCM-L > > or email your subscription request to: > subTSCM-L@t... > =================================================== TSKS > 1519 From: Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 2:50pm Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" 9/20/00 4:31:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 1ach@g... writes: << what must be considered is that when ever we work with electricity protective materials should always be employed by the person working the circuit. I believe United labitories are the governing agency for all products sold thats related to electricity.I did not fully research the criteria for insulation of certain screw drivers, but did find that at least 1 set of S-drivers has a resistivity of 105 ohms. >> Very Interesting. We're talking TSCM here. I've been sweeping over 20 years and this tool is excellent. Also Radio Shack - Tandy wouldn't sell anything dangerous. Don't take yourself or this list too seriously. Between the jokes, politics, ethics and the over engineered answers (equivalent of US government $400 toilet seats) you can bet that EVERY sweeper located in a country that has a Radio Shack has some of their gear in their kits. MACCFound@A... 1520 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" At 7:50 PM -0400 9/20/00, MACCFound@a... wrote: > > 9/20/00 4:31:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 1ach@g... writes: > ><< what must be considered is that when ever we work with electricity > protective materials should always be employed by the person working the > circuit. I believe United labitories are the governing agency for all > products sold thats related to electricity.I did not fully research the > criteria for insulation of certain screw drivers, but did find that at > least 1 set of S-drivers has a resistivity of 105 ohms. >> > >Very Interesting. We're talking TSCM here. I've been sweeping over 20 >years and this tool is excellent. Also Radio Shack - Tandy wouldn't sell >anything dangerous. Don't take yourself or this list too seriously. >Between the jokes, politics, ethics and the over engineered answers >(equivalent >of US government $400 toilet seats) you can bet that EVERY sweeper located >in a country that has a Radio Shack has some of their gear in their kits. > >MACCFound@A... Personally I spend a bloody fortune at Radio Shack. Between several hundred dollars of batteries at a time, cables, wall warts, fuses, various odds and ends (It's like a 7-11 or convenience store for electronics). -jma PS: What do you mean "over engineered answers"? ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 381-9111 Granite Island Group Fax: 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@tscm.com ======================================================================= Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. ======================================================================= 1521 From: Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 9:41am Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" OK. And those funny micro cassette recorders vith VOX? And other voice recording stuff like digital voice pens, DAT recorders, MP3 recorders, Mini disc recorders? Is there a common name to describe them? Janis "A Grudko" .co.za> cc: Subject: [TSCM-L] "Tap to Bug ratio" 00.09.20 15:36 Please respond to TSCM-L Common terms: I think that to the public, 'Bugged' simply means that someone is covertly intercepting a communication. To them, 'Tapped' only refers to phones. My understanding is that; 'TAP' is the physical (including inductive) attachment to an existing cable which by design carries signal/data, for the purpose of covert interception. "Bug" is the covert electronic interception of a conversation/data using some kind of introduced radiated transmission. "Intercept" (a term not yet used in this debate but of equal interest) is to gather audio/video/data which is deliberatly radiated but not meant for the interceptor (pager, cellular phone, cordless phone, 2-way radio, radio trunking, mains-modulation, baby-monitors, wireless intercoms etc) Andy Grudko 1522 From: Raymond M. Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 6:11pm Subject: Re: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" "James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng" wrote: > > At 7:50 PM -0400 9/20/00, MACCFound@a... wrote: > > > > 9/20/00 4:31:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 1ach@g... writes: > > > ><< what must be considered is that when ever we work with electricity > > protective materials should always be employed by the person working the > > circuit. I believe United labitories are the governing agency for all > > products sold thats related to electricity.I did not fully research the > > criteria for insulation of certain screw drivers, but did find that at > > least 1 set of S-drivers has a resistivity of 105 ohms. >> > > > >Very Interesting. We're talking TSCM here. I've been sweeping over 20 > >years and this tool is excellent. Also Radio Shack - Tandy wouldn't sell > >anything dangerous. Don't take yourself or this list too seriously. > >Between the jokes, politics, ethics and the over engineered answers > >(equivalent > >of US government $400 toilet seats) you can bet that EVERY sweeper located > >in a country that has a Radio Shack has some of their gear in their kits. > > > >MACCFound@A... > > Personally I spend a bloody fortune at Radio Shack. Between several > hundred dollars of batteries at a time, cables, wall warts, fuses, > various odds and ends (It's like a 7-11 or convenience store for > electronics). > > -jma > > PS: What do you mean "over engineered answers"? I'd have to agree with Jim. Unless you have another choice like a Ham Outlet or Electronic Warehouse nearby, we're often reliant on Radio Shack's to cover those "forgotten" misc. items missing from our kits. I usually avoid buying batteries at Radio Shack. Way too expensive, considering when you can get quality batteries elsewhere. But when your on a mission, you do what you got to do. And as for the idea of over-engineered answers, I like them over-engineered. Least we forget that we should be in a non-alerting stage before we move into the alerting stage? Non-conductive tools in a phone closet sounds like a good idea to me. Less chance of creating an alerting clicks on a hot audio line (or static interference as seen at the LP on a video monitor). Oh yea, Hi BTW. This is my first post to this group. But I've been monitoring you all for quite a while. ;-) -Ray M. 1523 From: Raymond M. Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:07pm Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" I think you got most of it right, but I think you missed this point: "Tapping" data and analog lines is considered to be a non intrusive (usually require non entry, i.e. TEMPEST) type collection effort. "Bugging" usually requires an intrusive type of attack like physically installing a device or causing a solder glob on the right pair of connections for loss of intelligence from the targetted area. Public? What do they know? The general public thinks that Molder & Skully uses their cellular phones to talk secure. :-) I guess they forgot about O.J. and the Bronco. -Ray M. > Common terms: > > I think that to the public, 'Bugged' simply means that someone is covertly > intercepting a communication. To them, 'Tapped' only refers to phones. > > My understanding is that; > > 'TAP' is the physical (including inductive) attachment to an existing cable > which by design carries signal/data, for the purpose of covert > interception. > > "Bug" is the covert electronic interception of a conversation/data using > some kind of introduced radiated transmission. > > "Intercept" (a term not yet used in this debate but of equal interest) is > to > gather audio/video/data which is deliberatly radiated but not meant for the > interceptor (pager, cellular phone, cordless phone, 2-way radio, radio > trunking, mains-modulation, baby-monitors, wireless intercoms etc) > > Andy Grudko 1524 From: A Grudko Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 0:39pm Subject: Re: Wavecoms for video sniffing Received... > Of course the eavesdropper would have to keep his power levels low so > as not to draw attention from the PCS provider, and would need to use > a high gain antenna to pick his signal out from that of the PCS > station. Sorry, no speaka da language.....what is PCS? Personal Cellular Service looks possible (Pet Cooking Service?). Andy Johannesburg 1525 From: A Grudko Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" ----- Original Message ----- > OK. And those funny micro cassette recorders vith VOX? And other voice > recording stuff like digital voice pens, DAT recorders, MP3 recorders, Mini > disc recorders? Is there a common name to describe them? > Janis I'd suggest 'recorders'...... > Common terms: > I think that to the public, 'Bugged' simply means that someone is covertly > intercepting a communication. To them, 'Tapped' only refers to phones. Andy Grudko Jo'burg 1526 From: Ted Swift Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:34am Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" >Common terms: > >"Intercept" (a term not yet used in this debate but of equal interest) is to >gather audio/video/data which is deliberatly radiated but not meant for the >interceptor (pager, cellular phone, cordless phone, 2-way radio, radio >trunking, mains-modulation, baby-monitors, wireless intercoms etc) > >Andy Grudko (CEO) - Grudko Wilson Associates (SA) (Pty) Ltd - Crime Andy: I certainly hope that "Professor" J. Ross, possibly the ultimate authority on TSCM questions, never hears your definition of "intercept." He would cringe and then quickly correct you, explaining that an "intercepted" signal is one that never reaches its intended recipient (same as an intercepted pass in football). Cordially, Ted Swift ACM Research Service 1527 From: Robert G. Ferrell Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 3:01pm Subject: Re: Wavecoms for video sniffing >Sorry, no speaka da language.....what is PCS? Personal Cellular Service >looks possible (Pet Cooking Service?). Usually it stands for Personal Communication Service (or System). It's a generic term for duplex digital wireless communcations operating at 1.9 GHz. In this context, though, it might better be called "Public Conversation Supplier." ;-) RGF Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP Information Systems Security Officer National Business Center U. S. Dept. of the Interior Robert_G_Ferrell@n... ======================================== Who goeth without humor goeth unarmed. ======================================== 1528 From: Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:25am Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" In a message dated 9/21/00 10:54:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tnswift@e... writes: << I certainly hope that "Professor" >> I feel that you are referring to the "Pontiff." If I'm correct, I think I've seen white smoke recently and we should be ready for the new arrival. MACCFound@a... 1529 From: Ted Swift Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:53am Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" Surely, no one can ever fill THOSE shoes. At 04:25 PM 9/21/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/21/00 10:54:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >tnswift@e... writes: > ><< I certainly hope that "Professor" >> > >I feel that you are referring to the "Pontiff." If I'm correct, I think I've >seen >white smoke recently and we should be ready for the new arrival. > >MACCFound@a... > 1530 From: Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 0:15pm Subject: Re: "Tap to Bug ratio" - Vatican Selection In a message dated 9/21/00 2:06:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tnswift@e... writes: << Surely, no one can ever fill THOSE shoes. >> Possibly, but that doesn't stop the dedicated or maniacally driven from trying. 1531 From: James M. Atkinson, Comm-Eng Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 7:35pm Subject: Mexico's Fox Denounces Phone Tap Note: The poor guy needs really needs to hire some good TSCM'ers to make his problems go away ;-) -jma ------------------------------------------------- Mexico's Fox Denounces Phone Tap http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20000921/t000089296.html By JAMES F. SMITH, Times Staff Writer MEXICO CITY--An angry President-elect Vicente Fox vowed Wednesday to discover who bugged his phone call with a top campaign aide, calling it a case of political espionage that underlined the need to reform Mexico's intelligence system. El Universal, a major daily here, on Wednesday printed the transcript of a conversation between Fox and his spokeswoman, Martha Sahagun, during Mexico's recent presidential campaign. The newspaper quoted its source as saying the nation's intelligence agencies had made the tapes and have continued to bug Fox's lines since his July 2 victory. The government and the defeated Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, denied any responsibility, insisting that no police or intelligence agency is carrying out any such bugging. Phone intercepts are illegal in Mexico except with a judge's authorization, and then only during investigations of organized crime. Fox, the first opposition candidate to break the PRI's 71-year lock on the presidency, repeated his determination to reform the nation's Interior Ministry and intelligence service, long suspected of being used to monitor the ruling party's political foes. "We are going to make sure that the government conducts no espionage of any type that is outside the law," Fox said. The lengthy transcript published by El Universal included some disparaging remarks by Fox about a television host but otherwise was not especially compromising. The newspaper indicated that it had been given other recordings, but it did not disclose any further contents. In a hastily called news conference, Fox did not challenge the content of the lengthy transcript printed by El Universal. But he chided the newspaper for not disclosing its source. Fox had charged during the campaign that he was being spied on, and some Mexicans have long suspected that the government security services routinely use telephone taps and other intelligence methods to monitor the activity of political opponents. Critics of the government's security apparatus contend that the intelligence services have become politicized after so many years of PRI rule. Asked whether he believes that the government of President Ernesto Zedillo is spying on him, Fox noted that the tape transcript printed by El Universal was made before the election. "I don't know whether El Universal has conversations taped recently of the president-elect," Fox said. "If so, I'm sure El Universal will present them to us, and then I would have evidence that there is current espionage in this office and it would imply that it could be the government." Government officials rushed to disclaim any role in the bugging. Dionisio Perez Jacome, deputy interior minister in charge of security issues, denied that government agencies were responsible. He said the main government intelligence service, CISEN, doesn't even have the equipment to tap phones. "I deny categorically that either the Interior Ministry or CISEN" was responsible, he told a television interviewer. "CISEN doesn't bug phones, it is not an espionage agency, and even less an agency for political espionage." Sergio Garcia, the PRI's secretary-general, said that the party had nothing to do with the recordings and that an investigation should be launched to identify the culprit. At his news conference Wednesday, Fox said his transition team had access to the Interior Ministry and CISEN "and that's where I'm going to begin the investigation. But it would help me a lot if El Universal would tell us who is its source." The newspaper said a source had delivered a series of recordings of conversations between Fox and his aides, contending the tapes had been made by "government organs of intelligence and national security." The newspaper indicated that the tapes came solely from the campaign period, but it said the source reported that the bugging continues. "Everything they say is taped," the source was quoted as saying. Fox spent much of the impromptu news conference explaining and defending the salaries being paid to members of his transition team. Newspapers have been critical of Fox for failing to clarify how much his staff members are being paid from a trust fund created by the government to support the transition. Fox said he is not accepting any salary and is living off his savings. He said 185 team members are being paid an average of $3,400 a month, with 11 top advisors receiving up to about $9,000 a month. Two aides are donating their salaries to a children's fund, Fox said. ======================================================================= The First, The Largest, The Most Popular, and The Most Complete TSCM, Technical Security, and Counterintelligence Site on the Internet. ======================================================================= James M. Atkinson Phone: (978) 381-9111 Granite Island Group Fax: 127 Eastern Avenue #291 http://www.tscm.com/ Gloucester, MA 01931-8008 jmatk@tscm.com ======================================================================= Do not try the patience of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. =======================================================================